[ANSWERED] What does $100mm get you?
05-14-2015, 04:52 PM
#21
Melting Slicks
Looking at Car and Driver’s Lightning Lap test where a C6 Z07 posted a 2:53.5 and the C7 Stingray Z51 which, and again I find this hard to believe, posted a 2:53.8 I would say mission spectacularly accomplished.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-2014-feature
That the C7 Z06 will completely take out the ZR1’s 2:50.7 time (on Sport Cup tires no less) is a given. Consider that the Camaro Z/28 put up a 2:50.9.
Consider Willow Springs’ big track, aka Big Willow. In 2010, Lemans winner Justin Bell flogged a ZR1 to a 1:29.69 around that track.
This year, Randy Pobst wheeled a C7 Z06 around that track to the tune of a 1:25.0. Yes, nearly 5 seconds faster than Justin Bell in the ZR1.
The C7 Z06 at VIR should be instructive.
05-15-2015, 11:53 AM
#22
Actually, I believe the target was, incredibly, the C6 Z06. https://www.cars.com/articles/2014/0...oit-auto-show/. See paragraph one.
Looking at Car and Driver’s Lightning Lap test where a C6 Z07 posted a 2:53.5 and the C7 Stingray Z51 which, and again I find this hard to believe, posted a 2:53.8 I would say mission spectacularly accomplished.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-2014-feature
That the C7 Z06 will completely take out the ZR1’s 2:50.7 time (on Sport Cup tires no less) is a given. Consider that the Camaro Z/28 put up a 2:50.9.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...o-2014-feature
That the C7 Z06 will completely take out the ZR1’s 2:50.7 time (on Sport Cup tires no less) is a given. Consider that the Camaro Z/28 put up a 2:50.9.
Mero puts it better than I:
(start at 1:01:20)
The Stingray posted a time of 2:51.78, which approaches the time (2:50) of a Z06 with Goodyear tires.
05-15-2015, 12:41 PM
#23
Looking at Car and Driver’s Lightning Lap test where a C6 Z07 posted a 2:53.5 and the C7 Stingray Z51 which, and again I find this hard to believe, posted a 2:53.8 I would say mission spectacularly accomplished.
That the C7 Z06 will completely take out the ZR1’s 2:50.7 time (on Sport Cup tires no less) is a given. Consider that the Camaro Z/28 put up a 2:50.9.
That the C7 Z06 will completely take out the ZR1’s 2:50.7 time (on Sport Cup tires no less) is a given. Consider that the Camaro Z/28 put up a 2:50.9.
Last edited by grcor; 05-15-2015 at 12:43 PM.
05-15-2015, 01:27 PM
#24
Le Mans Master
The Corvette program is interesting to study due to its very long history and its constant redefinition, which is different from the 911, for instance, since that car hasn't changed as much each generation. It's fun to see the responses the Corvette team make from one generation to the next and predict from that history where it will go.
The talk going into C5 was about how much softer and approachable it is than C4 due to lower door sills and less harsh Z51 package (the C4 Z51 must haunt the team to this day because they STILL talk about how livable whatever current iteration of Z51 is). The lesson going out, due to the success of Z06, was that the corvette buyer will pay good money for a higher performance car.
Going into C6, the Z06 is a shockingly high performance car with several bespoke pieces. I remember quite well on this forum the laments that the team lost the "spirit" of the Z06 because the new one commanded such a high price premium over the base car and was thus no longer "affordable." I really think the team was surprised at how well the Z06 turned out. If I remember correctly, the car was originally going to have 450hp out of an engine based on what the LS3 became until Dave Hill pushed the team to reach for 505 (a 7 liter engine was required to hit the target). The ZR1 was made on a lark to see how far they could push with a price target of 100K. Ironically for all that the lesson going out, due to the success of the Grandsport, was that the corvette buyer will pay good money for the "appearance" of a high performance car.
Going into the C7, Tadge stated multiple times that the benchmark for the C7 was the Grandsport. The base C7 is a widebody, like the Grandsport, and looks similar to its Z06 sister...like the Grandsport. The Z06 is still an extremely high performance car. I've asked before, if there was no overheating issue, would anyone have a problem with it as presented? Nevertheless, there are less..."focused" versions of the car now for people who want a Z06 but don't "want" a Z06. Remember, if you order a Z07 package it's only meant for the track. Driving over even a pebble in that car will pulverize your skeleton (still haunted by C4 Z51
). Anyway, the lessons going out of C7 have yet to be written, but I suspect they will be "It's alright to walk softly and carry a big stick, but you have to prove that you have a big stick for it to be respected."
The talk going into C5 was about how much softer and approachable it is than C4 due to lower door sills and less harsh Z51 package (the C4 Z51 must haunt the team to this day because they STILL talk about how livable whatever current iteration of Z51 is). The lesson going out, due to the success of Z06, was that the corvette buyer will pay good money for a higher performance car.
Going into C6, the Z06 is a shockingly high performance car with several bespoke pieces. I remember quite well on this forum the laments that the team lost the "spirit" of the Z06 because the new one commanded such a high price premium over the base car and was thus no longer "affordable." I really think the team was surprised at how well the Z06 turned out. If I remember correctly, the car was originally going to have 450hp out of an engine based on what the LS3 became until Dave Hill pushed the team to reach for 505 (a 7 liter engine was required to hit the target). The ZR1 was made on a lark to see how far they could push with a price target of 100K. Ironically for all that the lesson going out, due to the success of the Grandsport, was that the corvette buyer will pay good money for the "appearance" of a high performance car.
Going into the C7, Tadge stated multiple times that the benchmark for the C7 was the Grandsport. The base C7 is a widebody, like the Grandsport, and looks similar to its Z06 sister...like the Grandsport. The Z06 is still an extremely high performance car. I've asked before, if there was no overheating issue, would anyone have a problem with it as presented? Nevertheless, there are less..."focused" versions of the car now for people who want a Z06 but don't "want" a Z06. Remember, if you order a Z07 package it's only meant for the track. Driving over even a pebble in that car will pulverize your skeleton (still haunted by C4 Z51
). Anyway, the lessons going out of C7 have yet to be written, but I suspect they will be "It's alright to walk softly and carry a big stick, but you have to prove that you have a big stick for it to be respected."With a car of this nature, and the market getting as competitive as it has been in decades, the decision with how to spend the budget and how to make the right compromises clearly becomes the greatest challenge. In addition, factors that influence this car clearly stem from how much "sharing" it can do, based upon other models under the GM umbrella. I think it's a great philosophy, and it's clearly proven itself as a means to bring big performance at a lower msrp. The only issue is, how much do those other models move the rudder of the "mother ship"...that being the Z06.
The biggest difference you see between HALO's of certain other manufacturers, versus this Z06, is the HALO of other companies tend to act as the "trickle down". The experiment of the engineers to develop technologies and ideas that they then use in various ways to improve the brand/s overall. In the Z06's case, this is more of a HALO made from the best the current parts shelf can offer. It just doesn't have the persona of a leader, and in that, it feels very compromised.
I repeatedly heard "no excuses" with the C7. Tadge and company...they repeated that over and over. Obviously, this implied that Corvette was often the car that was deemed "Fast...for the money". That excuse at the end, was what they wanted to eliminate. They wanted to be completely valid with cars twice the price, no excuses. It appears in some ways they did it, but in my opinion it just appears that it's a 95% car...it kind of accomplished that objective, but it's like a very delicate house of cards.
The creative marketing lingo of "shifts faster than PDK" (kinda), "most track capable Corvette ever" (kinda), "Lighter frame and stiffer structure" (yet heavier curb weight in the end). The performance is full of excuses now...littered. On the flip side, the interior is definitely better (albeit heavier), the top comes off, the Z06 has a "D" selection and two pedals, and it has a nice all american roots blower on it. Even the design itself appears to be a misdirection. The older guys all thought GM really targeted this youth market...but in my opinion, they really dug their heels in and confirmed who this entire brand is for now...they've essentially tossed what younger guys want out the window.
05-15-2015, 02:19 PM
#25
Long term I think Corvette hits the 12 and under crowd very well (though of course I have no evidence of this). It looks like a hotwheels car, GM sells licensed R/C car stingray body shells (http://www.horizonhobby.com/1-10-201...100-s-vtr03011), and it's in both Gran Turismo and Forza. I myself got into corvette after driving them in Need For Speed III, of all things, as a kid. The car was never really on my radar as a "cool" car until then. Give kids who are playing Forza now 10-30 years and they might be in line to by a C8, 9, or 10 (remember, cars in video games don't have overheating issues).
The market is vastly more competitive now than it was during the C6 and most of the C5 era. That being said I notice, from talking to people both in person and on forums, that there are basically three tracks young performance car buyers take. American, European, Japanese. Put simply it's like this:
American => V6 Ponycar to V8 Ponycar to Corvette/Viper.
European => Gti/3series to BMW M to Porsche
Japanese => Civic/FRS to (muddled either Nissan Z or BMW) to GTR
The issue, as I see it, is that for Corvette the V8 Ponycars perform so well now that younger buyers would rather keep their Camaro 1LE or Boss Mustang and start a family with a more practical high performance car than jump to a more focused corvette and have to have a second car. I myself am starting to look sideways at the upcoming ATS-V and am asking myself why not that car instead of a C7 (in the far future, I buy used).
I am quite looking forward to the launch of the upcoming Camaro. GM is quite proud of trouncing the Mustang, sales wise, in the previous generation and I suspect they want to continue to do so even if that means they pouch possible Corvette buyers.
05-15-2015, 02:44 PM
#26
Le Mans Master
I'm not as sure. The issue is how young is the "youth market?" You appear to be talking about people younger than say 40 that have the means to purchase such a car. Nevertheless, a long history car such as corvette, much like BMW 3 series and Porsche 911, can sustain strong sales purely by flywheel effect. Dave McLellan in his excellent book Corvette From the Inside stated it was purely memories of corvette's glory years that carried the car through the dismal C3 generation because buyers of that car lusted for C2s and could now afford corvettes and bought C3s.
Long term I think Corvette hits the 12 and under crowd very well (though of course I have no evidence of this). It looks like a hotwheels car, GM sells licensed R/C car stingray body shells (http://www.horizonhobby.com/1-10-201...100-s-vtr03011), and it's in both Gran Turismo and Forza. I myself got into corvette after driving them in Need For Speed III, of all things, as a kid. The car was never really on my radar as a "cool" car until then. Give kids who are playing Forza now 10-30 years and they might be in line to by a C8, 9, or 10 (remember, cars in video games don't have overheating issues).
Long term I think Corvette hits the 12 and under crowd very well (though of course I have no evidence of this). It looks like a hotwheels car, GM sells licensed R/C car stingray body shells (http://www.horizonhobby.com/1-10-201...100-s-vtr03011), and it's in both Gran Turismo and Forza. I myself got into corvette after driving them in Need For Speed III, of all things, as a kid. The car was never really on my radar as a "cool" car until then. Give kids who are playing Forza now 10-30 years and they might be in line to by a C8, 9, or 10 (remember, cars in video games don't have overheating issues).
The C7 Z51 is the 40 yr old guys Corvette....but in ways I think this was the misstep. Z06 has youth attention...current youth...people who can buy now, and then buy C8. Z06 has been sold out to the current wallets...and this is where I believe they should've used ZR1 for that purpose, then truly identified Z06 with the current buyer group that looks to Euro/*** options.....me.
The market is vastly more competitive now than it was during the C6 and most of the C5 era. That being said I notice, from talking to people both in person and on forums, that there are basically three tracks young performance car buyers take. American, European, Japanese. Put simply it's like this:
American => V6 Ponycar to V8 Ponycar to Corvette/Viper.
European => Gti/3series to BMW M to Porsche
Japanese => Civic/FRS to (muddled either Nissan Z or BMW) to GTR
The issue, as I see it, is that for Corvette the V8 Ponycars perform so well now that younger buyers would rather keep their Camaro 1LE or Boss Mustang and start a family with a more practical high performance car than jump to a more focused corvette and have to have a second car. I myself am starting to look sideways at the upcoming ATS-V and am asking myself why not that car instead of a C7 (in the far future, I buy used).
I am quite looking forward to the launch of the upcoming Camaro. GM is quite proud of trouncing the Mustang, sales wise, in the previous generation and I suspect they want to continue to do so even if that means they pouch possible Corvette buyers.
American => V6 Ponycar to V8 Ponycar to Corvette/Viper.
European => Gti/3series to BMW M to Porsche
Japanese => Civic/FRS to (muddled either Nissan Z or BMW) to GTR
The issue, as I see it, is that for Corvette the V8 Ponycars perform so well now that younger buyers would rather keep their Camaro 1LE or Boss Mustang and start a family with a more practical high performance car than jump to a more focused corvette and have to have a second car. I myself am starting to look sideways at the upcoming ATS-V and am asking myself why not that car instead of a C7 (in the far future, I buy used).
I am quite looking forward to the launch of the upcoming Camaro. GM is quite proud of trouncing the Mustang, sales wise, in the previous generation and I suspect they want to continue to do so even if that means they pouch possible Corvette buyers.
I often question GM's presentation of the Corvette at places like SEMA. Manufacturers who really have young attention act very boldly...FORD, Honda and Nissan. GM has a central booth, but low and behold it's got Camaro's with slicks and ****...no modded vettes. The first I EVER saw of a modded vette in their booth was Z06x (arguably a concept), or the Gran turismo car...something they seemed not truly invested in to date. Mustang and Honda will put out 1$ cars to the aftermarket and let them run wild...this captures youth excitement and spurs the aftermarket to develop parts, which in turn leads to sales. The only aftermarket Corvette has ever truly had, has been engine based, not truly platform based. I feel that GM's failures in this arena are obvious and repeating, based upon my many years of watching it.
In the end, I am tired of defending my ownership of "an old mans car" or watching oil and gas guys buy it to go drag race. The legacy of the car is being lost, because GM doesn't spur the involvement with it that is SHOULD have. The Corvette platform is incredible for so many different uses...people should be drifting these cars and they should be modding the hell out of them...but they aren't. Myself...I've now got my Z06 and my BMW collection is growing. Between 5 and 15 years ago you'd never see me in anything but a Japanese platform. The door was opened for Corvette with Z06...I'm tellin you...and they f*cked it up.
05-15-2015, 03:25 PM
#27
The demographics issue for Corvette is more immediate than a long term shift would allow though. At the entry of C6 the demographics were somewhere in the range of 66yrs old/100k a yr/etc, at the entrance of C7 it was 71 (if i recall correctly). At this rate, the C8 buyer will need oxygen tanks on board with a scooter dolly on the back. Corvette needs to make a long term shift (targeting the poster car/hot wheels image/etc), but there was also a need to capitalize somewhat NOW....and I think they did that much more successfully with the Z51 car, than with Z06...which I think was their intent quite frankly.
The C7 Z51 is the 40 yr old guys Corvette....but in ways I think this was the misstep. Z06 has youth attention...current youth...people who can buy now, and then buy C8. Z06 has been sold out to the current wallets...and this is where I believe they should've used ZR1 for that purpose, then truly identified Z06 with the current buyer group that looks to Euro/*** options.....me.
The only aftermarket Corvette has ever truly had, has been engine based, not truly platform based. I feel that GM's failures in this arena are obvious and repeating, based upon my many years of watching it.
You are vastly more on the ground floor than I am. I just spit on my finger and hold it up in the wind. Nevertheless, I think the direction the team is taking the car in different is different from what the vast majority of buyer's want. And honestly corvette buyers don't really seem that "serious" to me. Monster horsepower and the knowledge that it "could" be very fast on a race track, not "I can make it go fast on a racetrack" appears to dominate.
In the end, I am tired of defending my ownership of "an old mans car" or watching oil and gas guys buy it to go drag race. The legacy of the car is being lost, because GM doesn't spur the involvement with it that is SHOULD have.
Last edited by Clairvoyantwolf; 05-15-2015 at 03:28 PM.
05-27-2015, 02:47 PM
#28
Melting Slicks
VIR grand is difficult to judge for a number of reasons, mostly to due with the track being repaved, and magazine driver's not being as good as factory test engineers.
Mero puts it better than I:
C7 Corvette Chassis Development Seminar at the 2013 NCM Bash - YouTube
(start at 1:01:20)
The Stingray posted a time of 2:51.78, which approaches the time (2:50) of a Z06 with Goodyear tires.
Mero puts it better than I:
C7 Corvette Chassis Development Seminar at the 2013 NCM Bash - YouTube
(start at 1:01:20)
The Stingray posted a time of 2:51.78, which approaches the time (2:50) of a Z06 with Goodyear tires.
C6 Z06
2:58.2, fastest time for Goodyear equipped car.
2:53.5, fastest time for Z07 with its Cup tires.
ZR1
2:51.8 on Pilot Sports.
2:50.7 on Sport Cups
For reference, the mag drivers got the Stingray around to the tune of a 2:53.8. As a quick aside, it seems that the factory drivers are running some 2 – 4 seconds faster than the mag drivers.
But, again, that the Z/28 could put up a 2:50.9 in the hands of the mag drivers speaks volumes about where the C7 Z06 will be.
05-27-2015, 10:02 PM
#29
Le Mans Master
Oh, I don't deny what you're saying. Would you happen to know average buying age of Viper perhaps? I would be curious.
I was merely repeating the demographics layout I was given at one of the Corvette events. I am not a huge Viper fan or follower particularly, though I happened to know some people who race Vipers. Based upon the Viper corrals I've been to I'd say mid 40's. Viper owners want to be noticed...they buy the car because it gets more attention. A lot of the guys I met were divorced/single, late 40's, tough guy types...lol. I will say, at the entire Viper corral at Mid-Ohio, I don't think one Viper owner had gray hair...there were probably 35 Vipers there.
Neither one of use can say for sure, but if I remember correctly from past birth bash presentations (don't go, just watch the videos), the ZR1 outsold Z06 and the majority of ZR1 were heavily optioned. It seems that the "high level" corvette buyer buys the most expensive car he can get...and then never uses it. I believe it was reported at this year's bash that about 73% of Z06s were ordered with the highest trim package. Anyway, we'll know how and where corvette sits after the initial interest wears off in a couple of years.
Frankly I think it's very hard to use ZR1 or late C6 Z06 sales as any indication because if you look at sales figures it CLEARLY slumped when the housing market crashed/banks shut down/etc. Consumer confidence was very low and people were protecting their dollars...especially older fella's who need to protect their homes/retirement/etc.
You are vastly more on the ground floor than I am. I just spit on my finger and hold it up in the wind. Nevertheless, I think the direction the team is taking the car in different is different from what the vast majority of buyer's want. And honestly corvette buyers don't really seem that "serious" to me. Monster horsepower and the knowledge that it "could" be very fast on a race track, not "I can make it go fast on a racetrack" appears to dominate.
I'm not sure what the "ground floor" means but...I just speak from my years as a shop owner/car builder/etc. I am very connected to demographics that are into racing, into drifting, into what's hot and what's not. I go to so many events and just shake my damn head thinking...why isn't Corvette here....such an affordable OUTSTANDING machine...no love. The NA1 NSX still to this day makes magazines, gets modded and raced like crazy by enthusiasts...the C5 and C6 should be RIGHT there...they are CHEAP for what you get. LS7 Z06 for 30 GRAND! It boggles my f'in MIND why young people don't connect with this car, but then again I KNOW why...GM doesn't place themselves in that market.
Mustang gives away mustangs for a dollar to aftermarket companies...honda passes cars out like crazy. If you want youth attention, you NEED to put the car into the hands of influential builders that are guiding the youth to what to buy. Gran Turismo was a HUGE sign to me, that maybe something was changing...but as quick as it came, it went. No Z06 on the damn game still!
The average corvette buyer age is obvious to me whenever I try to buy a Corvette shirt, out of fashion...literally. My hope is that the addition of a race track at the NCM points the way towards a more "complete" future.
I was merely repeating the demographics layout I was given at one of the Corvette events. I am not a huge Viper fan or follower particularly, though I happened to know some people who race Vipers. Based upon the Viper corrals I've been to I'd say mid 40's. Viper owners want to be noticed...they buy the car because it gets more attention. A lot of the guys I met were divorced/single, late 40's, tough guy types...lol. I will say, at the entire Viper corral at Mid-Ohio, I don't think one Viper owner had gray hair...there were probably 35 Vipers there.
Neither one of use can say for sure, but if I remember correctly from past birth bash presentations (don't go, just watch the videos), the ZR1 outsold Z06 and the majority of ZR1 were heavily optioned. It seems that the "high level" corvette buyer buys the most expensive car he can get...and then never uses it. I believe it was reported at this year's bash that about 73% of Z06s were ordered with the highest trim package. Anyway, we'll know how and where corvette sits after the initial interest wears off in a couple of years.
Frankly I think it's very hard to use ZR1 or late C6 Z06 sales as any indication because if you look at sales figures it CLEARLY slumped when the housing market crashed/banks shut down/etc. Consumer confidence was very low and people were protecting their dollars...especially older fella's who need to protect their homes/retirement/etc.
You are vastly more on the ground floor than I am. I just spit on my finger and hold it up in the wind. Nevertheless, I think the direction the team is taking the car in different is different from what the vast majority of buyer's want. And honestly corvette buyers don't really seem that "serious" to me. Monster horsepower and the knowledge that it "could" be very fast on a race track, not "I can make it go fast on a racetrack" appears to dominate.
I'm not sure what the "ground floor" means but...I just speak from my years as a shop owner/car builder/etc. I am very connected to demographics that are into racing, into drifting, into what's hot and what's not. I go to so many events and just shake my damn head thinking...why isn't Corvette here....such an affordable OUTSTANDING machine...no love. The NA1 NSX still to this day makes magazines, gets modded and raced like crazy by enthusiasts...the C5 and C6 should be RIGHT there...they are CHEAP for what you get. LS7 Z06 for 30 GRAND! It boggles my f'in MIND why young people don't connect with this car, but then again I KNOW why...GM doesn't place themselves in that market.
Mustang gives away mustangs for a dollar to aftermarket companies...honda passes cars out like crazy. If you want youth attention, you NEED to put the car into the hands of influential builders that are guiding the youth to what to buy. Gran Turismo was a HUGE sign to me, that maybe something was changing...but as quick as it came, it went. No Z06 on the damn game still!
The average corvette buyer age is obvious to me whenever I try to buy a Corvette shirt, out of fashion...literally. My hope is that the addition of a race track at the NCM points the way towards a more "complete" future.
GM and their marketing crew are f*ckin retarded...detached...I've talked to them multiple times. Too full of their resume and their theories and not connected to the market. I know guys 30 years old buying 100k GTR's and modding them IMMEDIATELY...warranty out the window. The money is out there, but GM is playin to the old guys making convertibles with automatics and carbon brakes...a rolling contradiction...a sell out.
People believe what they read or see on the internet in 30 seconds. They don't want to do the research, they want to scan the timeline on facebook, view the instagram vid (15 seconds), view the snapchat (10 seconds), game, etc. I don't see Corvette ANYWHERE...NOWHERE. I could do Gorilla marketing with a Z06 and make videos on a damn SKELETON budget that would go viral status with young guys.
When the C7 released...the video's...some of the marketing...I thought "man, these guys might really be getting it now"....but nope...it all faded quickly...fail...
Edit: I'll even point out further...youtube...hugely subscribed channels, NO Z06's...none. Porsche is barely even sending the GT3RS here...production is limited and the buyers are damn near chosen, but Porsche has EVERYONE driving that car. GM let's someone drive a Z06 and all of a sudden it's out of alignment, needs suspension calibration, etc. Porsche drops sh*t off and says..."beat on it". I HATE to LOVE Porsche in so many ways.
It would take ONE Z06 with ONE capable guy and a small budget to put that f*ckin car EVERYWHERE. Give me a Z06 and a budget and that car will be perceived as the baddest sh*t on 4 wheels. It's not about fact based marketing...it's about perception. The Z06 got beat by that orange T/A Viper and it was VIRAL...people are simple idiots...now all of a sudden I see guys talking about the Viper being king. Are they buyers...maybe not, but I guarantee you, that sh*t sells cars. You can serve these old boys their chrome and all their bs...but why abandon the youth market and sell out the ONE label they liked?
Last edited by RC000E; 05-27-2015 at 10:10 PM.
09-03-2015, 05:18 PM
#30
I have read the majority of the enormous volume of reviews and tests that the C7 has been subjected to and the rear styling is only very rarely mentioned. On the contrary, those conducting the reviews and driving tests have absolutely RAVED about the car's driving quality and the handling/cornering performance it provides. Hell, even the steering feel and precision is so far superior to the rest that it leaves the rest in its dust.
So, go ahead. Skip the C7 because of its rear styling, if you must. For it is only you and those who think like you who will lose out. The C7 is a GEM !!!
And THAT is coming from a guy that has raced in SCCA in Formula Ford and who has also raced a Vintage 1964 Mini. So, I know what a joy it is to drive a car that goes fast around corners. And when I drive ANY car, I never see the rear of my car. Do YOU ???