[ANSWERED] An optional cooling pack for C7 (track use or other)
05-14-2015, 09:02 AM
#1
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[ANSWERED] An optional cooling pack for C7 (track use or other)
Original question is here.
SBC_and_a_stick asked:
Does GM have any plan to sell a cooling pack in the future for the C7 chassis? Is it even a possibility, and if so, what would it look like?
Background
The limitations of the radiator and related parts that help the car stabilize oil and water/coolant temperature are easily reached when the C7 Z06 is driven aggressively (such as on a track at an HPDE event). There are now many reports from owners overheating the cars in 80 degree weather or even in 70 degree weather. This limitation of the car as sold will be exacerbated in the coming summer months. Many media outlets have reported overheating. This includes every occurrence when Motor Trend tested the C7 Z06 and during daily driving the C7 Stingray by Edmunds. See here:
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/cor...tain-road.html
The commonly displayed overheating message is "Engine Overheating, A/C has been turned off, please idle engine." Coolant temperatures in particular quickly approach 257 degrees which prompt the computer to issue a warning in the center display.
Other manufacturers offer such an optional package to effectively cool the car. See for example the new Shelby GT350 Track Pack is described as follows: "optional with the Track Pack, an engine oil cooler and a transmission cooler."
https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...0-mustang.html
Does GM have any plan to sell a cooling pack in the future for the C7 chassis? Is it even a possibility, and if so, what would it look like?
Background
The limitations of the radiator and related parts that help the car stabilize oil and water/coolant temperature are easily reached when the C7 Z06 is driven aggressively (such as on a track at an HPDE event). There are now many reports from owners overheating the cars in 80 degree weather or even in 70 degree weather. This limitation of the car as sold will be exacerbated in the coming summer months. Many media outlets have reported overheating. This includes every occurrence when Motor Trend tested the C7 Z06 and during daily driving the C7 Stingray by Edmunds. See here:
http://www.edmunds.com/chevrolet/cor...tain-road.html
The commonly displayed overheating message is "Engine Overheating, A/C has been turned off, please idle engine." Coolant temperatures in particular quickly approach 257 degrees which prompt the computer to issue a warning in the center display.
Other manufacturers offer such an optional package to effectively cool the car. See for example the new Shelby GT350 Track Pack is described as follows: "optional with the Track Pack, an engine oil cooler and a transmission cooler."
https://media.ford.com/content/fordm...0-mustang.html
Tadge answered:
I see the reference to both Stingray and Z06, so I will address both starting with the Stingray: We do all of our track validation with the front plate removed and I am not aware of a case of overheating when a Z51 car is properly prepared. The article referenced talks about cooling issues on the street when driven aggressively in hot temperatures with the front plate installed. I see in the picture of the Edmunds long term test, the car has a front plate in what we call the "show" position and so when driven very aggressively had insufficient cooling. As discussed in the owner's manual, this panel is "to be removed when driving aggressively or in hot weather". All cars shipped to states that require front plates also have a plate frame that mounts higher on the bumper and does not block as much of the cooling flow. Because states have varying height-to-ground requirements the plate holder sits high on the front bumper to accommodate those laws. While fully legal and beneficial for cooling performance, it doesn't look very good and many customers have asked for a more integrated solution, hence the optional "show" position centered on the grille. Although intended as a "show" position, for 99% of street usage the cooling performance is fine. Some may be quick to point out that other cars seem to be able to have low front plates and robust cooling (fourth and fifth generation Corvettes, for example), but those are "bottom breathers" with major compromises to down force performance. Although there are very few complaints from Z51 customers on cooling issues, we are looking at taking some of the learnings and hardware from the Z06 and making them available on the Stingray. For example, the front-mounted supplemental trans cooler developed for the Z06 automatic will be included in the Z51 package for automatic coupes starting in the 2016 model year.
We have discussed the Z06 cooling robustness in this space before and are very concerned about what some customers are experiencing. We have built over 8,000 Z06's so far with the vast majority of them having no cooling issues. We are working to gather data from customers (some of whom may have posted here) who have concerns and are in the process of sorting through that. We have found a few build issues, a few prep issues, and some vehicle mods that have hurt cooling performance. An example of a build issue would be an improper bleed of the intercooler circuit. Even a small air bubble can impact performance. As I indicated in in my last "Ask Tadge" answer, we design for 30 degrees centigrade and have for decades without customer dissatisfaction. We may have to move our target upwards since customers appear to want to run their cars very hard at elevated temperatures.
The question asks about what kind of cooling upgrade could be made available through GM performance parts. I can tell you we are looking at a variety of robustness improvements that could take many forms. It could be in calibration (and for followers of these threads, we haven't forgotten about the "rough track" chassis calibration talked about a few weeks back), cooling system or specification changes, or even super charger hardware tweaks. It will take us a while to work through what makes the most sense and to do the validation, but we will make every effort to make sure that the changes are backwards-compatible to vehicles already produced. In the meantime, we sincerely appreciate the customers we've contacted openness and willingness to work with us on continuous improvement.
I see the reference to both Stingray and Z06, so I will address both starting with the Stingray: We do all of our track validation with the front plate removed and I am not aware of a case of overheating when a Z51 car is properly prepared. The article referenced talks about cooling issues on the street when driven aggressively in hot temperatures with the front plate installed. I see in the picture of the Edmunds long term test, the car has a front plate in what we call the "show" position and so when driven very aggressively had insufficient cooling. As discussed in the owner's manual, this panel is "to be removed when driving aggressively or in hot weather". All cars shipped to states that require front plates also have a plate frame that mounts higher on the bumper and does not block as much of the cooling flow. Because states have varying height-to-ground requirements the plate holder sits high on the front bumper to accommodate those laws. While fully legal and beneficial for cooling performance, it doesn't look very good and many customers have asked for a more integrated solution, hence the optional "show" position centered on the grille. Although intended as a "show" position, for 99% of street usage the cooling performance is fine. Some may be quick to point out that other cars seem to be able to have low front plates and robust cooling (fourth and fifth generation Corvettes, for example), but those are "bottom breathers" with major compromises to down force performance. Although there are very few complaints from Z51 customers on cooling issues, we are looking at taking some of the learnings and hardware from the Z06 and making them available on the Stingray. For example, the front-mounted supplemental trans cooler developed for the Z06 automatic will be included in the Z51 package for automatic coupes starting in the 2016 model year.
We have discussed the Z06 cooling robustness in this space before and are very concerned about what some customers are experiencing. We have built over 8,000 Z06's so far with the vast majority of them having no cooling issues. We are working to gather data from customers (some of whom may have posted here) who have concerns and are in the process of sorting through that. We have found a few build issues, a few prep issues, and some vehicle mods that have hurt cooling performance. An example of a build issue would be an improper bleed of the intercooler circuit. Even a small air bubble can impact performance. As I indicated in in my last "Ask Tadge" answer, we design for 30 degrees centigrade and have for decades without customer dissatisfaction. We may have to move our target upwards since customers appear to want to run their cars very hard at elevated temperatures.
The question asks about what kind of cooling upgrade could be made available through GM performance parts. I can tell you we are looking at a variety of robustness improvements that could take many forms. It could be in calibration (and for followers of these threads, we haven't forgotten about the "rough track" chassis calibration talked about a few weeks back), cooling system or specification changes, or even super charger hardware tweaks. It will take us a while to work through what makes the most sense and to do the validation, but we will make every effort to make sure that the changes are backwards-compatible to vehicles already produced. In the meantime, we sincerely appreciate the customers we've contacted openness and willingness to work with us on continuous improvement.
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Larry Bittner (07-18-2016)
05-14-2015, 12:19 PM
#3
Somba master
Well, those of us living in front plate states don't have the option of removing the plate when the weather is hot. I have not seen the higher front plate mount described, but it sounds like the hideous front bumper mounted one for the C6. The plain fact is, these cars run HOT in hot weather. They then pull timing aggressively, and even shut down the AC. Both are poor band-aid "fixes" for a problem that shouldn"t exist. I'm no engineer, but I think there are trade offs being made, maybe for cost issues, that are responsible. Whatever the cause, this is a core mechanical issue that should have some precidence over some of the unnecessary geegaws that have been added to the C7. Spend some of the money and effort that was put into, say, the video recording system or other unneeded toys, on the cooling system.
My C6es both run hot in hot weather, both running slowly in traffic, or while being driven hard. Pulling timing and turning the AC off are unacceptable, especially when I run 93 octane gas exclusively. This shows it is a problem that crosses generational lines, and reflects ongoing poor choices in design or specifications. How about a more efficient radiator, better fan system, or improvements to the cooling system in the engine itself?
I'm happy to hear Tadge comment on their continuous improvement efforts, but this is a problem from the C6 generation continuing through the C7. Somebody has missed an opportunity over years of development to lay this issue to rest.
My C6es both run hot in hot weather, both running slowly in traffic, or while being driven hard. Pulling timing and turning the AC off are unacceptable, especially when I run 93 octane gas exclusively. This shows it is a problem that crosses generational lines, and reflects ongoing poor choices in design or specifications. How about a more efficient radiator, better fan system, or improvements to the cooling system in the engine itself?
I'm happy to hear Tadge comment on their continuous improvement efforts, but this is a problem from the C6 generation continuing through the C7. Somebody has missed an opportunity over years of development to lay this issue to rest.
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yellowmnm (02-17-2016)
05-14-2015, 12:32 PM
#4
"For example, the front-mounted supplemental trans cooler developed for the Z06 automatic will be included in the Z51 package for automatic coupes starting in the 2016 model year."
The three A8 C7 drivers I've spoken to all had excessively high trans temps on track. Getting an upgrade to address it from GM is excellent news.
"As I indicated in in my last "Ask Tadge" answer, we design for 30 degrees centigrade and have for decades without customer dissatisfaction."
My GS needed a larger rad and separate oil and trans coolers to keep from overheating on track. I was not dissatisfied because I paid ~ $65k for the car. I would be livid if I had to add similar cooling upgrades on a Z06 I paid ~ $100k for.
"I can tell you we are looking at a variety of robustness improvements that could take many forms."
Very encouraging.
"In the meantime, we sincerely appreciate the customers we've contacted openness and willingness to work with us on continuous improvement."
You are buying a lot of goodwill with your participation here. We appreciate your time and effort in replying to our concerns.
The three A8 C7 drivers I've spoken to all had excessively high trans temps on track. Getting an upgrade to address it from GM is excellent news.
"As I indicated in in my last "Ask Tadge" answer, we design for 30 degrees centigrade and have for decades without customer dissatisfaction."
My GS needed a larger rad and separate oil and trans coolers to keep from overheating on track. I was not dissatisfied because I paid ~ $65k for the car. I would be livid if I had to add similar cooling upgrades on a Z06 I paid ~ $100k for.
"I can tell you we are looking at a variety of robustness improvements that could take many forms."
Very encouraging.
"In the meantime, we sincerely appreciate the customers we've contacted openness and willingness to work with us on continuous improvement."
You are buying a lot of goodwill with your participation here. We appreciate your time and effort in replying to our concerns.
05-14-2015, 01:13 PM
#5
I have just a couple of thoughts that might help someone with track prep. One old habit of mine is changing the engine oil before heading out to the track. The OM calls for 15w 40 for track events. Another thing that matters quite a bit is the front license plate, as Tadge discussed in his answer. One thing I do before starting a session is pull the front license plate off. It definitely affects airflow through the coolers and engine compartment. I've not ran with it in place (it became a habit long ago), so I don't know the degree of obstruction, but a glance will probably show about 1/4 of the open areas are now closed. The AC isn't an issue for me, as I turn everything off before starting a session. It costs HP whether it is overheating or not. I hope this post helps someone that is experiencing problems with overheating at the track. Best wishes to all!
05-14-2015, 01:19 PM
#6
"We have found a few build issues.
.
.
An example of a build issue would be an improper bleed of the intercooler circuit. Even a small air bubble can impact performance."
- Tadge
Interesting.
.
.
An example of a build issue would be an improper bleed of the intercooler circuit. Even a small air bubble can impact performance."
- Tadge
Interesting.
05-14-2015, 01:40 PM
#7
Team Owner
I'm sure there's a reason why something so simple isn't an option, but back in the day, I can recall simply buying a radiator with more cores so there was more thermal mass for the cooling system. I just bought 4 core radiators and that put an end to overheating issues. It is probably naive to think that's possible now, maybe the radiators are already at the point of diminishing returns for heat transfer and size, I don't know.
I would also like to add my thanks to Tadge for taking the time to give direct feedback.
I would also like to add my thanks to Tadge for taking the time to give direct feedback.
05-14-2015, 04:18 PM
#8
It's nice to get an answer, but....
see here: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...d-the-bad.html
A year ago I had significant overheating issue with my C7 Z51 M7 MRC coupe on track and there was no license plate frame on the front, and the manager of the Ron Fellows school confirmed back to me that they have had the very same issues I describe in that thread, including that he said GM knows about the AFM actuator failure issue, and their solution to the M7 transmission overheating issue was to not use 2nd gear on track.
Transmission temp is at the top of the gauge or more, which is at least 150 C (300F) and possibly more since gauge doesn't read any higher. Plus rad temp gauge started going north until I backed off in the later part of the day as I became familiar with the car on my home track
see here: https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...d-the-bad.html
A year ago I had significant overheating issue with my C7 Z51 M7 MRC coupe on track and there was no license plate frame on the front, and the manager of the Ron Fellows school confirmed back to me that they have had the very same issues I describe in that thread, including that he said GM knows about the AFM actuator failure issue, and their solution to the M7 transmission overheating issue was to not use 2nd gear on track.
Transmission temp is at the top of the gauge or more, which is at least 150 C (300F) and possibly more since gauge doesn't read any higher. Plus rad temp gauge started going north until I backed off in the later part of the day as I became familiar with the car on my home track
05-14-2015, 04:35 PM
#9
Platinum Supporting Dealership
What happened to GM Performance Parts line? I'd think they'd make a killing on supplying Corvette owners with performance goodies. GMPP radiator, GMPP heat exchanger, GMPP thermostat, GMPP stage 1 or stage 2 (smaller pulley, injectors, tune). GMPP Track Pack - includes radiator, larger transmission cooler, extrude and honed manifolds and an ECU cal. People would buy it!
05-14-2015, 11:32 PM
#10
Drifting
Honest Question
Well, those of us living in front plate states don't have the option of removing the plate when the weather is hot. I have not seen the higher front plate mount described, but it sounds like the hideous front bumper mounted one for the C6. The plain fact is, these cars run HOT in hot weather. They then pull timing aggressively, and even shut down the AC. Both are poor band-aid "fixes" for a problem that shouldn"t exist. I'm no engineer, but I think there are trade offs being made, maybe for cost issues, that are responsible. Whatever the cause, this is a core mechanical issue that should have some precidence over some of the unnecessary geegaws that have been added to the C7. Spend some of the money and effort that was put into, say, the video recording system or other unneeded toys, on the cooling system.
My C6es both run hot in hot weather, both running slowly in traffic, or while being driven hard. Pulling timing and turning the AC off are unacceptable, especially when I run 93 octane gas exclusively. This shows it is a problem that crosses generational lines, and reflects ongoing poor choices in design or specifications. How about a more efficient radiator, better fan system, or improvements to the cooling system in the engine itself?
I'm happy to hear Tadge comment on their continuous improvement efforts, but this is a problem from the C6 generation continuing through the C7. Somebody has missed an opportunity over years of development to lay this issue to rest.
My C6es both run hot in hot weather, both running slowly in traffic, or while being driven hard. Pulling timing and turning the AC off are unacceptable, especially when I run 93 octane gas exclusively. This shows it is a problem that crosses generational lines, and reflects ongoing poor choices in design or specifications. How about a more efficient radiator, better fan system, or improvements to the cooling system in the engine itself?
I'm happy to hear Tadge comment on their continuous improvement efforts, but this is a problem from the C6 generation continuing through the C7. Somebody has missed an opportunity over years of development to lay this issue to rest.
What type of C6's do you have? I have a manual Grand Sport and I've never run into any cooling issues, at the track and especially on the street. I run my pretty hard but the hottest I've been able to get my coolant & oil was at VIR late in July, but it usually stabilizes around 245ish* max.
05-15-2015, 01:40 AM
#11
Racer
What happened to GM Performance Parts line? I'd think they'd make a killing on supplying Corvette owners with performance goodies. GMPP radiator, GMPP heat exchanger, GMPP thermostat, GMPP stage 1 or stage 2 (smaller pulley, injectors, tune). GMPP Track Pack - includes radiator, larger transmission cooler, extrude and honed manifolds and an ECU cal. People would buy it!
05-15-2015, 06:37 AM
#12
Somba master
Shrike6,
What type of C6's do you have? I have a manual Grand Sport and I've never run into any cooling issues, at the track and especially on the street. I run my pretty hard but the hottest I've been able to get my coolant & oil was at VIR late in July, but it usually stabilizes around 245ish* max.
What type of C6's do you have? I have a manual Grand Sport and I've never run into any cooling issues, at the track and especially on the street. I run my pretty hard but the hottest I've been able to get my coolant & oil was at VIR late in July, but it usually stabilizes around 245ish* max.
Even in 70* ambient, the GS consistently runs 200* or higher, often 210* or so in street driving. Timing is pulled starting at 196*, I believe. Front plate mounted with aftermarket mount like the C7 " show" mount. In the 2006, the a/c shuts down at 225* or so in traffic.
05-15-2015, 09:07 AM
#13
Tadge,
Really appreciate you taking the time to address this question and it is encouraging to know GM is putting some resource behind this.
It looks like it might end up being the case that the Z06 will need a track-focused radiator/oil cooler combination; it would be awesome if GM could supply this upgrade through its dealers; or, if not possible, at least allow owners to make such an upgrade without jeopardizing their warranty.
Really appreciate you taking the time to address this question and it is encouraging to know GM is putting some resource behind this.
It looks like it might end up being the case that the Z06 will need a track-focused radiator/oil cooler combination; it would be awesome if GM could supply this upgrade through its dealers; or, if not possible, at least allow owners to make such an upgrade without jeopardizing their warranty.
05-15-2015, 02:12 PM
#15
Seems like alot of the answer was geared towards the license plate. Bummer was hoping for a real discussion on this topic. It is becoming very sickening not know what the car will do after you have made the $2000.00 a weekend commitment for a track event.
The C7 Z51 car was indeed noted and complained about way back Nov 2013. I was the first civilian to do so. My car then was all over the 300 mark with oil and trans temps. This was on a M7 car as well. I even sent the data and info to Rick Conti which sent in to GM's tech department to look into.
I think the biggest problem is guys we aren't complaining enough. Its easy to forget and some times bothersome to carry the car down to the dealer after the fact. But we gotta start getting these documented. Or GM will keep saying we weren't told. I invite and GM rep or Tech to come on out with me and my guys anytime next month to Road Atlanta and see for yourselves this problem.
I will be doing a documentary on my experiences with on person cameras and using the PDR. I want to prove to GM this is a issue and it must be addressed.
Thanks JVP for the opportunity to at least let us ask the questions.
The C7 Z51 car was indeed noted and complained about way back Nov 2013. I was the first civilian to do so. My car then was all over the 300 mark with oil and trans temps. This was on a M7 car as well. I even sent the data and info to Rick Conti which sent in to GM's tech department to look into.
I think the biggest problem is guys we aren't complaining enough. Its easy to forget and some times bothersome to carry the car down to the dealer after the fact. But we gotta start getting these documented. Or GM will keep saying we weren't told. I invite and GM rep or Tech to come on out with me and my guys anytime next month to Road Atlanta and see for yourselves this problem.
I will be doing a documentary on my experiences with on person cameras and using the PDR. I want to prove to GM this is a issue and it must be addressed.
Thanks JVP for the opportunity to at least let us ask the questions.
05-15-2015, 02:31 PM
#16
Safety Car
Many of us like the car and would like to keep it as opposed to buying a competitor car that cools down properly (like the Viper) but lacks many of the design features that we have come to love with the C7. But the low cooling capacity of the Corvette in general, culminating in the Z06 record low capacity, is tearing us apart in terms of keeping the car. As you know our generation is not willing to compromise (botox, viagra, and so forth). Let's hope it is the same on the supply side of things.
05-15-2015, 03:51 PM
#17
...
Many of us like the car and would like to keep it as opposed to buying a competitor car that cools down properly (like the Viper) but lacks many of the design features that we have come to love with the C7. But the low cooling capacity of the Corvette in general, culminating in the Z06 record low capacity, is tearing us apart in terms of keeping the car. As you know our generation is not willing to compromise (botox, viagra, and so forth). Let's hope it is the same on the supply side of things.
05-15-2015, 04:01 PM
#18
Racer
I'm keeping my fingers crossed that will receive a solution before the summer is over. The hot operating temperatures will take their toll on every component under the hood. I'm afraid of part failure with prolonged use in such conditions. It makes very little sense to take all cautionary procedures - warming up the engine slowly every day, breaking in the car by the book up to 1,500 miles - only to run the coolant and oil to max temperatures every session of every track day.
Good statement and likely very much on the mind of some owners that track their cars or push them real hard. Gm could start to see warranty claims come in towards the end of summer. Which may become very costly for them. Along with giving the brand a black eye of sorts. Owners will not be happy should then end up with long waits and downtime after dishing out the dollars.
05-15-2015, 06:04 PM
#19
While there has been over 8000 Z06's sold per Tadge's comment (which is a great accomplishment), I for one am not buying. I had overheating isues with my 2014 Z51 on track on the very first day including a parts failure due to overheating requiring a vist to the dealer for warranty repairs. That left me wondering about trading in my car for a Z06. But since I knew they hadn't properly designed the Z51 for serious track work, I wasn't going to put my money down on a Z06 until it had been shown by other drivers on track that the Z06 had been upgraded enough from the Z51 level to be the "most track capable Corvette ever". It has been shown conclusively on this forum with the PDR displays that the Z06 is not up to HPDE lapping by fast drivers as it overheats, and so until GM modifies the car so it can run continuously on track like my buddy's Viper T/A and my other buddy's 991 GT3, I'm not a buyer. I suspect if this doesn't get fixed soon, there will be many other lost buyers of Z06's. At least the type of buyers who like to drive their cars on track.
This overheating issue is not providing the make any good publicity either, as every one of my track buddies knows about it now. When I was at the SEMA show last year at the GM booth looking at all the Z06 parts on the displays with the little plaques indicating how much more effective at cooling these parts were than the Z51 parts, I thought, "hey, GM is going to offer me some parts to upgrade my Z51 for the track". It hasn't happened yet. Then I listened to two older gentleman (one the founder of the Buttonwillow track I think) talking endlessly to a GM marketing rep at the booth who were telling him how they had taken the class at the Ron Fellows school and how the Z51 cars ran flawlessly, and never overheated. I bit my tongue until they left and then I showed pictures I had on my phone of my temps on the dash while on track to the GM marketing guy. I also told him I had a couple of e-mails from the Ron Fellows School manager about them having the same issues I had regarding the Z51 overheating on track, and the GM guy said he had never heard of that. He sounded actually interested and asked me for my business card which I gave him and said he would send me an e-mail so I could forward him those e-mails and then he would get back to me. Well he never sent me an e-mail, so I was not able to forward the overheating issues directly to GM. Then I went and enjoyed the build by 2 techs of the LT4 engine in their booth.
This overheating issue is not providing the make any good publicity either, as every one of my track buddies knows about it now. When I was at the SEMA show last year at the GM booth looking at all the Z06 parts on the displays with the little plaques indicating how much more effective at cooling these parts were than the Z51 parts, I thought, "hey, GM is going to offer me some parts to upgrade my Z51 for the track". It hasn't happened yet. Then I listened to two older gentleman (one the founder of the Buttonwillow track I think) talking endlessly to a GM marketing rep at the booth who were telling him how they had taken the class at the Ron Fellows school and how the Z51 cars ran flawlessly, and never overheated. I bit my tongue until they left and then I showed pictures I had on my phone of my temps on the dash while on track to the GM marketing guy. I also told him I had a couple of e-mails from the Ron Fellows School manager about them having the same issues I had regarding the Z51 overheating on track, and the GM guy said he had never heard of that. He sounded actually interested and asked me for my business card which I gave him and said he would send me an e-mail so I could forward him those e-mails and then he would get back to me. Well he never sent me an e-mail, so I was not able to forward the overheating issues directly to GM. Then I went and enjoyed the build by 2 techs of the LT4 engine in their booth.
05-15-2015, 07:39 PM
#20
Le Mans Master
30C is only 86F. The average high temperature here in July and early August is 90F. And it's much higher in the southwestern US.
They need a higher design temperature.
They need a higher design temperature.