[ANSWERED] Manual trans vs auto
02-16-2017, 05:09 PM
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[ANSWERED] Manual trans vs auto
The original question is here.
FYREANT asked:
I am curious at how you and the rest of the Corvette team feels about the apparent decline in manual transmission vehicle production across the American auto industry and in particular, Corvette. Do you feel like the manual trans is no longer an important option for the Corvette buying market and do you think there will come a time that Corvette is only available in auto trans?
I am curious at how you and the rest of the Corvette team feels about the apparent decline in manual transmission vehicle production across the American auto industry and in particular, Corvette. Do you feel like the manual trans is no longer an important option for the Corvette buying market and do you think there will come a time that Corvette is only available in auto trans?
Tadge answered:
I hear this question a lot since people who love driving manual transmission vehicles are very passionate about it. Obviously there is no substitute for the level of engagement and control that you have when driving a manual. Believe me, I get it. In my 40+ years of buying and driving vehicles, I have never purchased a new vehicle for my own use that wasn't a manual trans.
Of course, the auto industry was started and for decades remained almost exclusively propelled with manual transmissions. Starting in the 1940's, automatic transmissions became available. GM, of course, was a principle change agent with the invention of the Hydramatic which signaled a sea change with two pedal cars becoming the norm and three pedal cars dropping in volume in a steady trend that continues to this day. In North America there are very few cars that even offer a manual transmission, and those that do see very low take rates. Customer preferences are changing even among sports car enthusiasts. Both the fifth and sixth generation Corvette Z06s were offered with only a manual and we heard from many customers that they would like an automatic. Now that we offer a choice, the automatic is running 80%. The value proposition for most people has shifted towards automatics. Even though manuals have gotten better with more gears, rev-matching and lower clutch efforts, automatics have gotten more engaging and capable with paddle shifters, quicker shifts than humans can make, and multiple modes of operation.
The manual transmission used to be the low cost option and therefore was standard equipment. High volumes of automatics have given us economies of scale and reduced costs. Manuals have experienced the opposite trend so now we are in a position where the traditional business model no longer works. Manual transmission suppliers face dwindling volumes making profitable production more difficult. This is why you see some companies eliminating manuals completely or packaging them in expensive models targeted towards serious enthusiasts. I don't know when, but eventually these market forces may make manual transmissions unavailable at any price, since there won't be manufacturers willing to make them. In the meantime, we are proud to be able to offer both transmission choices in all our models. Appreciate them while they are still here!
I hear this question a lot since people who love driving manual transmission vehicles are very passionate about it. Obviously there is no substitute for the level of engagement and control that you have when driving a manual. Believe me, I get it. In my 40+ years of buying and driving vehicles, I have never purchased a new vehicle for my own use that wasn't a manual trans.
Of course, the auto industry was started and for decades remained almost exclusively propelled with manual transmissions. Starting in the 1940's, automatic transmissions became available. GM, of course, was a principle change agent with the invention of the Hydramatic which signaled a sea change with two pedal cars becoming the norm and three pedal cars dropping in volume in a steady trend that continues to this day. In North America there are very few cars that even offer a manual transmission, and those that do see very low take rates. Customer preferences are changing even among sports car enthusiasts. Both the fifth and sixth generation Corvette Z06s were offered with only a manual and we heard from many customers that they would like an automatic. Now that we offer a choice, the automatic is running 80%. The value proposition for most people has shifted towards automatics. Even though manuals have gotten better with more gears, rev-matching and lower clutch efforts, automatics have gotten more engaging and capable with paddle shifters, quicker shifts than humans can make, and multiple modes of operation.
The manual transmission used to be the low cost option and therefore was standard equipment. High volumes of automatics have given us economies of scale and reduced costs. Manuals have experienced the opposite trend so now we are in a position where the traditional business model no longer works. Manual transmission suppliers face dwindling volumes making profitable production more difficult. This is why you see some companies eliminating manuals completely or packaging them in expensive models targeted towards serious enthusiasts. I don't know when, but eventually these market forces may make manual transmissions unavailable at any price, since there won't be manufacturers willing to make them. In the meantime, we are proud to be able to offer both transmission choices in all our models. Appreciate them while they are still here!
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02-16-2017, 09:14 PM
#2
Like I wrote, manuals are a dying breed. Tadge just confirmed what all the high end sports cars manufacturers have already decided is the way forward, which is self shifting transmissions.
"Appreciate them while they are still here!"
"Appreciate them while they are still here!"
02-16-2017, 10:06 PM
#4
Race Director
curious if the future low volume of manual transmissions could be offered in Corvettes even as an extra cost option
(which could itself further depress volume)...assuming the future power-train platform is still compatible with a manual
(which could itself further depress volume)...assuming the future power-train platform is still compatible with a manual
Last edited by Gary '09 C6; 02-16-2017 at 10:07 PM.
02-17-2017, 04:05 PM
#5
In 50 years my manual will be worth a lot of money!
02-17-2017, 04:37 PM
#6
Originally Posted by Tadge
High volumes of automatics have given us economies of scale and reduced costs. Manuals have experienced the opposite trend so now we are in a position where the traditional business model no longer works.
At a certain point you hit pretty much the lowest cost possible and adding more volume does not make it any cheaper. I'd guess the automatic transmission has been at that point for a few decades. Especially GM's RWD automatic transmissions, since if anything volume has likely declined in the past 10-15 years as the truck and full-size SUV market has softened. Yes there are likely fewer manual transmissions being sold now too, but it's probably still enough to keep a single factory going. And at the end of the day a manual transmission is simpler with far fewer parts, making it inherently cheaper to build.
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Ramapo (06-24-2017)
02-18-2017, 01:39 AM
#8
Race Director
The manufacturers have not "decided the way forward", WE HAVE. With each passing year, WE (the buyers) buy fewer and fewer manuals. If I had come on this forum 10 years ago (2007) and said:
"By 2015, there will be NO Italian supercars with 3 peddles" I would have gotten laughed out here. Sadly, it's true and the car makers only REACT to what the market (us) tells them. Right now, 80% of new Corvette buyers are saying "automatic" and I would wager that if a DCT were available, that percentage would be even higher. The last year that Ferrari offered a manual (standard transmission in the 430), over 90% of buyers ordered the F1 transmission, at an additional $8K - $10K cost if I remember correctly. It is interesting to note that manual 430's are commanding significant premiums now compared to the F1 equipped cars.
My C7 is a manual, I will indeed enjoy it. I think the new mid-engine car will be DCT only, the C8 I fear will be automatic only. Or maybe (!), GM will revert to the C5 way and make the automatic standard and the manual an extra cost option.
Anyhow, I don't want carbs back or any of that silliness and am well aware that modern automatics make for a faster car, but.... I DO enjoy operating a clutch and shifting manually.
Last edited by jimmyb; 02-18-2017 at 01:41 AM.
02-18-2017, 04:22 PM
#9
Burning Brakes
The manufacturers have not "decided the way forward", WE HAVE. With each passing year, WE (the buyers) buy fewer and fewer manuals. If I had come on this forum 10 years ago (2007) and said:
"By 2015, there will be NO Italian supercars with 3 peddles" I would have gotten laughed out here. Sadly, it's true and the car makers only REACT to what the market (us) tells them. Right now, 80% of new Corvette buyers are saying "automatic" and I would wager that if a DCT were available, that percentage would be even higher. The last year that Ferrari offered a manual (standard transmission in the 430), over 90% of buyers ordered the F1 transmission, at an additional $8K - $10K cost if I remember correctly. It is interesting to note that manual 430's are commanding significant premiums now compared to the F1 equipped cars.
My C7 is a manual, I will indeed enjoy it. I think the new mid-engine car will be DCT only, the C8 I fear will be automatic only. Or maybe (!), GM will revert to the C5 way and make the automatic standard and the manual an extra cost option.
Anyhow, I don't want carbs back or any of that silliness and am well aware that modern automatics make for a faster car, but.... I DO enjoy operating a clutch and shifting manually.
"By 2015, there will be NO Italian supercars with 3 peddles" I would have gotten laughed out here. Sadly, it's true and the car makers only REACT to what the market (us) tells them. Right now, 80% of new Corvette buyers are saying "automatic" and I would wager that if a DCT were available, that percentage would be even higher. The last year that Ferrari offered a manual (standard transmission in the 430), over 90% of buyers ordered the F1 transmission, at an additional $8K - $10K cost if I remember correctly. It is interesting to note that manual 430's are commanding significant premiums now compared to the F1 equipped cars.
My C7 is a manual, I will indeed enjoy it. I think the new mid-engine car will be DCT only, the C8 I fear will be automatic only. Or maybe (!), GM will revert to the C5 way and make the automatic standard and the manual an extra cost option.
Anyhow, I don't want carbs back or any of that silliness and am well aware that modern automatics make for a faster car, but.... I DO enjoy operating a clutch and shifting manually.
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patentcad (02-24-2017)
02-19-2017, 01:17 AM
#10
Race Director
Same thing as a "pedal", just used improperly by yours truly....
02-19-2017, 07:23 AM
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You have to wonder if manual transmissions continue to decline in sales and they are no longer offered as standard equipment, what will be the price of admission for those that still want one on their car? 
02-19-2017, 09:44 AM
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That's not likely to happen if the sales numbers are that low.
Further, remember that every power train needs to be EPA fuel and emissions tested. That's expensive. Very expensive. If the take rate is that low, it's no longer worth it for GM to even bother certifying that option.
Think service and parts: manuals do break, though it's probably pretty rare. As rare as it may be, GM's SPO will have to keep some number of extra parts around for them. Including the clutches. Producing and storing these parts costs money.
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02-19-2017, 02:50 PM
#14
Amat Victoria Curam
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02-19-2017, 07:42 PM
#17
SUBVETTE
Guess I'll be one of the last dinosaurs driving one. In the last 60 years only manuals have been in my garage and it holds two now. Long live the third pedal for me!
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Ok Boomer (01-28-2020)
02-20-2017, 04:16 AM
#18
I believe that this comment mainly applies to North America. In Europe people are still addicted a lot to manual transmission. But for sure roads are totally different compared to US with not many straight roads that might explain it...
Last edited by Fastmikefree; 02-20-2017 at 04:16 AM.
02-20-2017, 06:11 AM
#19
Racer
They sure are, but because of smaller engines, high cost of fuel and lots more cars with diesel engines.
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Fastmikefree (02-20-2017)
