TOOGECKO

OK, Let's say hypothetically I am running a 10W3 in a JL stealthbox and I am not getting the "******** smashing oontz" (thanks, Kale!) that I really crave. And I am stupid because I want to keep my existing cover and partition in place. Would it (hypothetically) be worth it to upgrade to a W6? This is being powered by a JL250/1 amp...

scott_fx

i think you may be better off throwning more power at it then upgrading the sub... but i'm really not thinking straight right now

604_c5

the w3 should pound hard. you probably need a bigger amp!
Never leave ur Subs hungry! LOL

leolufse

more power or a different sub, or both. 500 watts to a JL 10w3v2 is just fine. that sub is a "sound quality" sub (notice how i put that in quotes). There are many other subs that have better SQ and SPL that will work in your application, don't limit yourself to JL.

TOOGECKO

Well,
I spec'ed the system for sound quality and JL was what kept coming up. Sound quality is not an issue as the system sounds great; I just really wanted to "feel" more of the lows without the removal of the partition. Is there another JL amp I could use to get more power? It has to be about the same footprint and be "black" to match the exisitng amps...

leolufse

the jl 500/1 is the same size, but not black.

0TheRadioFlyer97

I have the JL 500/1, 12w6v2 setup and recently got the opprotunity to compare to a JL10w3 running off a similar amplifier (one of JL's A-series amps)

The w3 was definatly being moved and produced good bass without distortion or other wierd bass sounds. However it paled in compairson to my W6. the W6 simply has more power, more than you'll ever need. So unless you're a complete bass-head, a properly powered W3 will be perfect.

According to JL's website, the optimum power range for the 10w3v3 is right aronud 300W. So by invsting in another amplifier, you'll probably get that powerful sound you seek. I would check out JL's A series amps for your power needs.

Ishams00vette

MORE POWER!!!!

TOOGECKO

Dammit - more money!

Power and Speed seem to come at a price

0TheRadioFlyer97

on the bright side, you can sell your 250/1. The JL slash series amps command a pretty penny even when sold pre-owned.

robvuk

Going from 250w to 300w would be insignificant. Going from 250w to 500w is only 3db. 3db is about the minimum noticeable difference. I think you are looking for something more. Do you have a high pass on the other speakers in the system? Or are they running full range? At what frequency do you have the low pass set on the sub?

Adding more power on a sub to get the testicular movement, usually ends up with blown subwoofers. At low frequencies the limit is not power but cone excursion. If the cone begins to hit it's limits, it will self destruct. To get more, you need to move more air. If the cone hits its limit and it isn't enough, you need bigger/more cones. If your other speakers in the system are running full range, they may be interfering with the sub performance. Some times the LOCATION of the speaker could be bad.

TOOGECKO

Well my problem is definitely location. It is
1. In the cargo well
2. Covered with the JL supplied stealth cover
3. Blocked by the partition in my Z06

Don't get me wrong - it sounds good and meets my original intent. I was just "hypothetically" asking if I could overcome the obstacles without having to remove them. I wanted a stealthy install and I got that. I just want it all!

scott_fx

i agree with you on this point in general but the power he is throwing at this sub is nowhere near what the sub can handle. As long as you properly set you gains, speakers can handle much more power then they are rated at. I still think that the easiest way for him to get more umph is to get that sub 500 wrms giving him the 3db boost that he is looking for. I'm not sure that a w6 with 250wrms is going to gain him much

Ruz

Why don't you remove your partition and see if that gives you what you are looking for? The JL Cover should be a 'screened' area over the sub to let sound through, so that shouldn't be a problem. I have a 10w1 in the back of my vert, and it will push the seats with the top down while on the expressway...I'm sure the 10w3 is more than enough to give you what you want.

fej

250w vs 500w is more than just 3db, it lends better woofer control for excursions, it also is far less likely to send a clipped signal during transients or other "high" draw conditions. This is of course with a properly gain set and tuned system. 250w to bass in a less than optimal enclosure just really is not that much power. Believe me I run 270-280 watts rms to mine currently and the speaker came alive with 600w rms. Tighter, more accurate, and more authority with the exact same crossover points and both amps with minimal gain settings in the same enclosure and same sized speaker leads. Not quite a night and day difference but absolutely discernable from even the most novice listener.

I would go with more power, keep your gains down, check your crossover point (somewhere around 80hz on the sub is usually about right unless you have deadened doors and solid midbass/range drivers for your front stage) and make sure you are sending a solid signal from your HU (75% or so of the max volume setting).

G'luck with your choice ... the w6 line is a really well built sub. I think my DD is getting an 8w7 which will be my first JL sub ( I date back to when they were basically a marketing firm contracting out all of their speaker building)

Fej

0TheRadioFlyer97

Things to consider before getting a new amplifier:

(assuming you have a 10w3v3)

Check your sub box volume: for your application, JL reccomends .625 Cu/Ft airspace for a sealed box. You might want to consider ading polyfill or fiber fill to simulate a larger box.

Second, Check your gains/system settings. You might want to consider an RBC-1 Remote Gain controller. They run about $30 and allow you to saily adjust your Subwoofer from the driver's seat. This will allow you to run run a higher signal input to your sub and adjust the bass boost depending on the particular song playing.

robvuk

250w to 500w is EXACTLY 3db. No more no less. And explain just HOW an amplifier can control the mechanical excursions of the woofer! True, it will be less clipping, by 3db assuming that you need to push it to clip. Setting the gain controls lower at one point and raising them at another point does not net anything. He never did tell me what his crossover points were or if his mains were running full range.

More power will definitely give you more dynamic range up to the point where your speaker has reached A) thermal power limits or B) mechanical excursion limits. Your conclusion generally works better with the high range speakers, not subs. Your speaker cone must move 4 times as far to produce the same volume at each half octave. So in other words, at a certain volume if your cone is moving 1/16 inch at 200hz,1/4 inch at 100hz, it will have to move a full INCH to maintain the same volume at 50hz. ALL SUBWOOFERS WILL REACH MECHANICAL EXCURSION LIMITS LONG BEFORE THEY REACH THERMAL LIMITS. The only way to defeat this is by rolling off the bass frequencies. The reason for this is the relatively LOW amounts of power that is required to make the speaker cone literally want to jump out of the basket at frequencies lower than 80hz.

I'm not all that familiar with any of the subwoofers you guys speak of since I come from the professional audio side of the business. My guess is that none of them will provide a 1 inch excursion for very long without mechanical failure. Even if you had infinite power, the cone can only move so far before it just stops. More dynamic range at the expense of more distortion. This would be the mechanical version of clipping, just like an amplifier would just stop when it reached its power limit. The only difference is that the amplifier just puts out a squared off signal. The speaker will tear the surround, distort the voice coil position and/or cause a magnet rub and fail.

fej

So you are saying you do not believe in the headroom principle? The reserve power designed for transient portions of music where amps actually come close to pushing their advertised RMS wattage vs the normal 10-20% it uses for most musical reproduction? Your arguement is coming from a "clean power" perspective, which is understandable coming from pro-audio. Car amps are going to clip far earlier than most rack mount amps will unless you get quite high end. Clipping is bad and I would wager a guess that we would both agree on this. Wattage is not only a decibel thing in this case (and I know it is only 3db) but also a clean signal issue. A portion of music that runs into a very high peak and calls upon the amp to deliver 250 watts from a 250 watt amp is going to clip, a 500 watt amp under the same circumstance is not. To me it is that simple.

You can take a 1000w RMS 12" sub and throw 400 dirty, clipped watts to it and damage it. That same sub will take 1500 watts clean easily (in transients, not continuous). All ratings are conservative for speakers as most use takes place further into the clipping range than they would ever recommend. They won't warranty drivers that are overpowered, so they keep their ratings conservative to keep their claims and repair costs down.

I do understand your point, but you cannot just throw out thermal and mechanical loads and amplifier power without considering what quality of signal is involved and where the amplifier will begin sending a clipped signal to the driver itself.

Fej

robvuk

Ok, here we go. First, YES, headroom is GOOD. BUT, your understanding of "clean power" is clouded. Let's assume that the two amps we're talking about are the same brand and quality, 250w and 500w. The max power each delivers is determined by how much power they can deliver before reaching a given percentage of power on a test bench into a dummy load of either 2,4 or 8 ohms. Since they are the same mfr. and the same quality, each will determine that power limit with the same percentage of THD. If the THD rating of each is .001%THD, it will be .001%THD or less for all power levels as long as it's below clipping. So the 500w amp will not be any cleaner at 240w than the 250w amp.

The problem here is that SUBWOOFERS won't mechanically take the rated power at low frequencies. GUARANTEED.

The power ratings of speakers are not deliberately rated low. They are rated as high as possible to compete in the market place. The dynamic range of rock/pop music recorded on a production CD is typically 10db to 20db at MAX. Let's assume the worst case of 10db. That's a power ratio of 10:1 ! This means that when the volume of your 500w system is set so that the peaks are just a hair below clip, the average output power is less than 50w! I think you'll agree that's less than almost any speaker sold on the market these days. The power ratings of speakers according to the EIC are supposed to be measured using shaped pink noise with only a 6db crest factor. That means that they will handle peaks 4 times greater than their average thermal capacity.

Unfortunately the EIA specifications do not differentiate between regular speakers and subwoofers, so they are measured using the same shaped pink noise. Not the frequencies they were intended for. This is bad when people think their 200w subwoofer will handle 200w average power at 50hz. It will NOT. The voice coil could easily handle 200w but the suspension and cone will not take it at 40 or 50hz. So while your 500w amp can deliver 3db higher undistorted, unclipped power, it is of no use on a subwoofer since it will detonate with those kinds of peaks at 40 or 50hz.

I hope this helps. I should probably tell you that I am not a kid that works at Circuit City or Best Buy. I have 40 years of experience in professional sound design and installation. If you have any other questions or need further clarification I will be happy to try.

TOOGECKO

So guys what's the summary? More power? More sub? Yes, I could remove my partition but really would prefer not to; it's real purty!
Also, road noise comes back when stereo is off and stored cargo wants to sit in the front seat with me