Aaron Pfadt

Hey All,

I'm looking at a new GPS data acquisition tool for one of my development vettes. I have a friend running the G2X system

http://www.g2xtreme.com/main.htm

but he just got it and doesn't have a lot of time using it yet.

I also am looking at the Traqmate system.

http://traqmate.com/products_complete.php

The systems with displays are both about $1000 retail and have GPS timing along with the ability to add several data inputs like RPM and other analog and digital signals.

The analysis software looks similiar, but without using it personally, I am unsure.

If anyone has either setup and some feedback on it I would appreciate it.

thanks,
Aaron Pfadt

Slalom4me

Here are some threads with discussion.

Traqmate group buy

Thoughts on Data Loggers?

.

NewC6Toy

You should put these guys on your shopping list...

http://www.race-technology.com/

I've been very impressed with their software.

jlucas

I'll be happy to answer any questions that I can.

Aaron, I sent you some data so you look at the DL1 analysis software in more detail.

BTW, the Pfadt products look nice.

Aaron Pfadt

Thanks guys. I learned a lot today about this stuff. I'm going to have to consider the DL1 now. Always works that way, get a budget, blow it because there is something better.

Thanks for the compliments on our suspension products. The pieces are great. Hope to get a few of you running our stuff so we can get some feedback on this site.

later,
Aaron

freefall

I've been looking at them also - looks like the dl1 just fits your budget actually.

One question - I've been wondering about the accuracy and its implications on useful data. Over a session, if you run a lap, then take a corner using the same line, are the locations going to be +/- 3m, or will those vary over the entire day (i.e. should a fast or slow drift be expected)?

Slalom4me

What about when you take into consideration the lack of display?

The Dash 1 display for the DL1 is optional - an extra $675.00.
The Dash 2 is a bit more - $965.00

Someone educate me - why are people so quick to look at something
other than the US-built G2X by Racepak?

.

jlucas

Aaron wants a dash as well so that's why he's saying it would be more money.

For your questions, in general (and this applies to the G2X as well as the DL1) your absolute accuracy is 3m. That means map it today, come back next year, it will be within that 3m. I was commisioned by Race Technology (the manufacturer in the UK of the DL1) to generate a whitepaper type of document for the DL1 to answer & demostrate this exact question and show the accuracy of examples of runs through a day, throughout a weekend, and going back a year after. They are working on re-doing their website and said it's going to be included in the on the new one. With good satellite coverage, you will typically see much better positional accuracy in a given session. In my example study, I used the entry curbing at the entrance to the keyhole at MidOhio. I'm pretty consistant there and usually pretty tight to the inside. The data from my entire session (~10 laps) was within 0.5m at that curbing point which I think is very representative of my true vehicle position throughout the session. I've seen examples from customers data where they can point out spots where they've dropped a wheel off the inside of curbing track during a race and you can see that in the data. It's hard to quote a specific number (no one officially does, G2X says it's approximately 12 inches) because it depends on the satellite coverage and the level of atmospheric interference due to the weather/season at the time the data was taken. I've also graphed the positional accuracy, which is a variable the DL1 calculates that I haven't looked for yet on the G2X, during a hot summer track weekend at VIR and it is actually the best in the morning and get's worse in the heat of the afternoon as the ionosphere has more solar radiation in it (Here's an example of how the solar radiation changes though out the day http://www.aiub.unibe.ch/ionosphere/gim.gif). There was a shift of 0.4-0.5m from morning to afternoon, with all of the data still being under the 3m absolute accuracy.

Sorry for the long answer but a short one of "it depends" just doesn't do the question justice.

edits: typos

jlucas

I've been investigating adding the G2X product line (I have the reseller agreement paperwork in front of me as I type this) to better fit all of my customer's needs. Unfortunately for me, the up front cost may prohibit me from adding it at this time but I've gotten pretty familiar with both of them so I feel I have a pretty good handle on the pros & cons of both systems. Hopefully down the road I will be able to offer both as not everyone's needs are the same.

A couple of things that might sway you one way or the other:
- software: easy of use (advantage: DL1), level of detailed analysis (DL1 = G2X but DL1 is easier to get to that point), some pro type data organization features (advantage: G2X), time slip % variable (DL1 only AFAIK)
- display: included basic display (advantage: G2X), predictive lap timing (DL1 w/DASH only), 4 variables displayed at one time (DL1 w/DASH1 only), programable warning lights- for example water temp too high (DL1 w/DASH only); RPM shift lights (DL1 w/DASH = G2X)
- inputs: to get the same level of 7 analog input that are built into the DL1 will cost $760 on the G2X; $60 CAN adapter cable + $99 for each Analog to CAN input cable (advantage: DL1), DL1 is currently limited to those 7 inputs, but the G2X can do 12 (advantage: G2X), propriatary CAN network based sensors on the G2X (greater cost but easier setup; G2X only)

Hope that helps. There is no one right answer for everyone; it depends on your current needs, your future expansion "wants", and your budget. Regardless of what you choose, download the software for both and be familar with what you are choosing. Even if a logger had the option to turn you into Heinrocket, it would be worthless to you if you can't make use of the software effectively.

freefall

Thanks for the info - coming from a geek, more is better!

Slalom4me

Keep in mind that saying "G2X = DL1 + Dash1" is like saying "$944 = ($965 + $675").

I'll add that, IIRC, Dash1 was not shipping as of early this year, the G2X dash has
been out since early in 2005. As well, I haven't seen an active Dash1, how bright
are the LED's. I do not notice any control buttons, can a user scroll through
readouts from different sensors somehow via the display or does the main unit
(DL1) need to be reconfigured to change displays.

I'd like more information on the remark about the 7 DL1 analogue channels and the
$760 it is said to require to host the same with G2X. What combination of sensors
does this represent? Do these represent inputs that users need/want/are willing
to pay for. Where does the net price of the two systems land when the DL1 Dash1
is included for an apples:apples comparison.

The G2X VNet BUS technology means that sensors daisy-chain together, each sensor
module carries information that identifies it to the G2X main unit and provides
default operating parameters - I plug my sensors together, turn on the G2X and
I am ready to go. One cable plugs into the G2X. With analogue channels, is there
a rat's nest of wiring? Am I faced with additional prep to label channel feeds
and ensure vibration does not cause conductors to disconnect. Does each channel
need to be manually configured. Is the successor to the DL1 likely to abandon
analogue inputs in favour of a BUS system?

Central to my decision to purchase a G2X over one year ago was its ability to log A/F
via a third-party O2 sensor. I needed to read O2 and rather than just buy a hand-held
O2 unit, I decided to spend more, getting the third-party's integrated 02 unit and the
G2X. (Actually, I bought their integrated unit, hand-held item, data box and the RPM
sensor from a CF member at the same time. See character remark in previous paragraph.)

As it turns out, the third-party O2 unit is a problematic device. Happily, the G2X is
not. Racepak has found that another vendor's 02 meter is much more dependable.
While I will probably switch some time in the future, I am managing to deal with
the third-party unit's quirks for now.

If you search here you will find that I initially had trouble generating a tach
signal that the G2X could use. This is not a fault of the G2X, it is the same
issue faced by people wanting to add non-OEM tachs, shift lights and rev-limiters.
The solution turned out to be an inexpensive, easy to install MSD 8913 Tach Adapter.

If you search the G2X forum, you will also see I had trouble with the Open Course
track mapping. The nature of a course I run seems to present a challange to the
GPS algorithm when I tell it to treat the course as an Open Course. I suspect
the same situation would happen with other GPS-based systems. To their credit,
Racepak is working to resolve the matter even though it is an uncommon issue.

The hiccups above have not hampered me in getting value from the G2X, nor kept me
from going back to Racepak multiple times for additional sensors to extend my system.

So much for the technology. A final consideration and by no means the least important
is the support behind the system. I have no doubt that my belief in the G2X and
passion in supporting it in posts like these stems from the assistance G2X owners
get from Tim Anderson at Racepak. Just an outstanding individual to work with,
Tim is the G2X franchise in my mind. Now that MSD has purchased Racepak, they bring
even more resources to the table for the development of future systems.

If I am missing something and walking around with TP stuck to my shoe, then
please speak up. Otherwise, take a look at the G2X, the people and the organization
behind it before spending your money.

.

jlucas

Correct, a DL1 + DASH1 costs more than a G2X. Is the extra cost worth it? depends on what features you want and your usage of the software. IMHO, yes but like I said, I'd like to be able to offer both, but can't at this time, becuase not everyone's needs are the same. They are both good products with different strengths.

The up and down arrow on the LHS of the DASH1 let you scroll through 5 software configurable display screens, each capable of displaying up to 4 variables at a time (or bar graphs instead of digital number). If you change the screen setup it is retained in memory until you change it again in the software. These 5 screens do not include the predictive lap timing screen which can be setup to display for a user selected time interval as you pass virtural beacons (so in effect that's a 6th screen available) or the user definable warnings that can also be setup via software. Predictive lap timing is not an option that can be added to the G2X at any cost.

Each analog channel you want to add to the G2X will cost you $99 plus the initial 1 time $60 Vnet to AuxIn adapter. If you only have 1 input (say for tapping into the stock TPS), your cost is only $159. Want to add one later, another $99. Add 7 and your at the ~$760. Add nothing, and your cost is nothing.

Vnet and it's ease of hookup is one of G2X's strong points and an advantage it has over any other GPS based system available, but it also means sensors are proprietary (slightly more cost, and not transferable to other systems). I'm not sure when/if Race Technology plans to go to a CAN bus. Analog connections will lead to more wires but it also allows you to tap into existing vehicle sensors/inputs and at least some analog connections would be advisable even if your using a G2X. G2X VNet/CAN setup will also allow up to 12 sensors/analog connections vs the DL1 being limited to 7 -- the only Race Technology option for more sensors is a DL2 which is significantly more cost. Vnet for the electrically/engineering challenged can be a godsend.

I agree that Tim is outstanding. He has supported my inquires promptly and with great detail, without him I probably would have passed on looking into including the G2X line. I strive to provide the same level as support that I have experienced with Tim, and would like to think that's one of the reasons why he extended a reseller opportunity to me.

Both are good systems, both have very happy customers, both have advantages and disadvantages. The choice is yours.

If you have questions, I will do my best to answer them.

Cashmo

I'm afraid that's not what I've experienced in a Solo / open circuits environment with our DL1. Our start line alone will move well over 3m during the course of 6 hours. Besides screwing up your driving line comparisons it changes the 'start or run' speeds which shifts the speed graphs making brake/accel comparisons from run to run very difficult.

Thanks for the info, the solar changes would help explain how our accuracy from run to run gets worse in the afternoon.

FWIW, the time slip feature was my #1 reason for buying the DL1.

Thanks,
Jeff

rbl

The SW will average it out with increased data (more laps) and it will actually be quite accurate.

rbl

I don't know about the DL1 but I have a G2X and it has a big problem in my mind.

1st the screen resolution to review data is setup for something like 1280 on the monitor and you can't change it. This means you cannot see all of the fields if you monitor is set at 1028 which is about as high as anyone does. On a lap top it is pitiful. Thus is a huge problem and the more channels you add the bigger the problem will be.

2nd. You cannot capture the entire screen for a print out. The print is what you see on the screen and it comes as a bit map file with pretty poor graphics. No fix for this either.

3rd. Drawing the track map is easy, but finding the corners is not. After working with it you can get the map and corners to show, but with the poor screen graphics you can't hardly read it. The SW will label the corners like 3 and then the next section as 3-3, then 4, then 4-5 and so on. Problem is that all of this is put into a tiny panel and what you really end up with is a pile of meaningless numbers all crunched together. This is a huge problem.

If you try to smooth out the corner mess then you really loose the resolution you are actually looking for. Example is the esses at VIR. This just becomes one big turn so all you really get is entry and exit speed … no real detailed data.

The box is very capable but the presentation software is not. BUT .. for the price it has allot to offer if you’re willing to play with it and spend the time to get the info.

There is also occasional problems with the RPM input from your ECU. It tends to rob the signal and kill your in-car tach. Mine does and they have no fix for this. Some folks have no difficulty however.

Slalom4me

rbl

I use a notebook with a display configured for 1400 x 1050. I have
optimized all the settings for this resolution but I tried switching
back to 1024 x 768 to see your issue. Frankly, without making
adjustment tweaks, all my apps display less effectively at 1024.

You may already know, but the top of the middle graphing window can
be dragged vertically - this lets the buttons in the upper window
realign themselves.

Using [Alt] + [Prnt Scrn] captures the entire display. Granted, if the
resolution used is insufficient, some of the DL II will be off-screen
- same as it would be with an MSExcel spread sheet or AutoCad
drawing.

Third-party graphics applications can help. There are freeware,
shareware and commercial packages like Snag-It and PaintshopPro
that provide print capture and extend the basic graphics features
provided with the Windows O/S.

As for the image quality, this is a crop of Datalink at 1400 x 1050. Click
the pic to see the entire capture. It is going to look less than great
because the browser is reducing the bitmap to display it and losing
display quality in the process - same as with other bitmaps. If you
open the file with an image utility like PSP, it will appear at full quality.



The issue with the track map also sounds like it is due in part to display
capability. However, it only improves incrementally with higher
resolution. I know it is useful for Datalink to combine buttons, graphs and
maps on one screen but I hope in the future a means is provided to organize
results in additional configurations that present larger, higher resolution for
components of the displayed results.

Without being too much of an apologist, I think I can ask you to
consider that on one hand people want to see outlines of tracks
that are 2 mi or longer. On the other hand, they want to compare
their lines to within inches between laps. And to exaggerate just
a little, they want to be able to show these results to others using
the display in their PDA or cell phone. A tall order.

.

rbl

I agree with most of what you're saying. The box is good but as far as I'm concerned the print function is pitiful. I have a good capture program.

You are the only one I have ever heard of that uses a 1400 resolution. Heck my laptop, old as it is, will only display 800!

I for one would not even be able to make out a character at 14/10 and I have a 20" LCD monitor and a 22" cad monitor. But, I am 60 and my eyes aren't as good as they used to be.

I think the SW was designed around the higher resolution and without using it, as you said, you can not get a complete print or view. You could at a small course, but not at any that I would consider worth collecting data from.

I think that they originally designed this for oval track stuff and the RC came latter with the less functional G2X as a spin off product.

It is probably as good as you will find anywhere for the $$ or possibly better, but with the screen limitations and associated printing problem I would not buy the product a second time.

Slalom4me

Well, keep in mind that with the notebook, my nose is perhaps
10" from the screen. I'll admit that I have glasses for reading &
detail work, also that I'm old enough to be your younger brother.

If you haven't posted to the forum or emailed Tim Anderson,
I encourage you to do so. Every interface I've ever used has always
had areas where it could benefit from improvement. (After more than
18 years, my vote is that MSWord still leaves a lot to be desired.)
Certain aspects of an interface are not easily changed but I'll say
that the G2X people are responsive to input.

The CSI/Racepak history as I understand it started with Unlimited Hydroplanes:
Who We Are & What We Do
According to the link, they added NASCAR and then Drag Racing.

I'm not sure it is accurate to call the G2X 'less functional'. I think it
is or was the first in their line to have GPS capability. The higher
level V50, V300 and V500 models may have been the first with the
V-Net BUS technology, but the G2X carries it to the consumer level.

Frankly, I expect that there have been some marketing issues to
work out to position the G2X in a way that doesn't leave customers
who purchased the higher-end hardware with an odd feeling. (The
same situation probably occurs at other firms that have been in the
business for some time.)

If you had a budget of $1,000 and needed to equip another car,
what would you buy instead of the G2X? If you held out for a time
to increase the budget to $2K, where would this be spent?

.

jlucas

Jeff, I'd be interested to see some of your data that shows this problem. Please email me (info @ FastTechLimited.com) a couple of runs so that I can try and make some suggestions for you. If you have good GPS reception and your not starting the logging before GPS lock, I don't understand why your having such a large problem issue. Admittedly I haven't personally done autocross with either of these units but I know there are a lot of autocross users. Some of the questions I have are: How & where are you attaching your antenna? How soon before the start of your run is the unit turned on and how soon before the start are you logging data?

Take a look at your "GPS pos acc" variable like in this lap of mine from MidO, what does it look like for your data? You can see in my data, that except for obstructions like going under the bridge at T1, absolute positional accuracy is under 3m.



As far as the screen resolutions, here's what 1280 looks like on both programs.
DL1:

G2X:


I haven't ever used the printing features from either one. I usually use SnagIt screen grabs and MS Word for any detailed reports.

If there are more questions, I will do my best to answer them.

rbl

I'm not sure, as this box is a good value as I said. However, it is disappointing that I cannot get decent hard copy so I can look at it.

I have talked with Tim several times and he has always been as helpful as he can. No issues there or with RacePack.

The term "resolution" is being misused I think. What I mean is without having your monitor set to a VERY high resolution you cannot see all of the information or print it. If I kick the monitor resolution up to get all of the information to display I need a magnifying glass to look at it!

The SW only gives you about 1/4 of the screen to see the track map and when you write 17 corners and segments on that it is just a mess. Example is the esses at VIR. Very distinct corners are fine however.

The old laptop is the only screen I can still "barely" read without the glasses ...