mrc24x

At the suggestion of another member I am going to just state facts related to my issues at the "Championships"

**************** TT problems ***************

1) I entered before Sept 1st to run TTC and PTC (a race class based on TT rules) To qualify I ran 4 TT events and 1 PT race. (5 points paying events)

Sept. 2nd I received a call from the National TT director and was questioned about my modifications and how I could run 41's in a "C"
car. It was also explained to me that it wasn't "fair" that some of us guys could come in halfway into the season and end up winning a Championship at the Nationals...the "us guys" included Danny by name fwiw. Towards the end of the conversation he said that he talked it over with the 2 other National Directors and they just couldn't let me enter the TT group because this event had to be run by the letter of the rules. The TT rules do state that you must have 5 points paying events in your class before you are allowed to run Nationals. At this point I am disappointed but none the less I was in the wrong so I asked to enter VVC1 so they could have a class and he said no problem.(this is Sept 2nd btw) The letter of the rules highlight absolutely no entries after Sept 1st.

Once I arrive at the track and explain to people why I'm not running TT they point out all of the people that didn't meet the requirements either but they were allowed to run. Needless to say I'm starting to get a little angry. Did I mention that the National TT director (Mr. G) that didn't allow me to run was running in TTC ?!?! My plan was to enter both TTB and TTC and since Danny didn't show up my time would have easily won both classes and that would mean that I would have 2 sets of Nitto NTo1's , 2 G-force helmets and about five hundred dollars in contingencies coming my way.

Why is a competitor solely in charge of the rules and who gets to compete???


2) I'm in line at registration Wednesday and I hear the guy next to me talking about how Greg is only worried about a guy in an S2000 in TT because the other guy(me) is only running in PTC and he is going to be DQ'd anyway because he is over by about 6 points so he is in good shape. WTF??

Mr. G has never looked at my car and it is exactly as my classification form states but he is determined to slander me without actually looking at my car because his mind is made up from 2000 miles away!! Throughout the week he never comes over to discuss my car or my points but continues to tell people my car is illegal because "he went 2 seconds faster than anyone in his class in August."

3) Saturday rolled around and I am about fed up with the other manipulation in my PT run group so I decided to take a walk and started to talk to the S2000 driver that had his share of problems also. He broke a hub and lost a wheel in turn 11, then repaired that and bent a valve so his weekend was over by the time the good weather came. I knew he was a fast driver and some of the other Corvette guys were telling me he was a good guy so I offered to let him drive my car in TTC for the last session of the day so he could have a shot at the Championship he deserved and he agreed to give me the tires if he won. Win Win.

The S2000 driver went to tell Mr. G what the plan was and his knees started shaking so badly I was 2 parking lots over and I thought we had another Ohio tremor. His response was "you can do what you want but that car is going to be put on the dyno and DQ'd." So now we think we're all set to go. The only thing left was to replace the HP power steering line and fill out some paperwork. Keep in mind it states that this is perfectly legal and we were doing everything by the letter of the rules. Well, the paperwork gets turned in and now they say that he can not drive my car period and Mr. G asks the driver " Matt is just doing this so I don't win isn't h?". It doesn't matter the rules are the rules...correct???

While I'm working on the car I tell the driver to get JG and have him step in which he did and I am very appeciative for the effort. So, we are back in action until 15 minutes before my race Mr. Anderson comes over to tell us that the car needs to be put on the dyno, scales and tech'd before he could take it on the track. My race was in 15 minutes and the last TT session was right after my race!!

Another round to "the man".

4) I know most of the class winners were put on the dyno. Mr. G's car was not on the dyno or the scales. Even after another regional director told Mr G. that other competitors questioned the legality of his car and it should be dyno'd Mr. G said that his car had already been tested earlier in the year!!

**************** PT issues ********************


There was not any description of how the qualifying format was going to take place other than combining the results from the Q race on Friday and the Q race on Saturday would determine the start grid for the Sunday Championship race. Our run group "F" had many different classes and there should have been details on how the grids would be set.

Friday we qualified for the Q race and I was 6th overall and 1st in class. The grid was set by the fastest times and not seperated by class other than the Legends would start ahead of us in the first wave. This put Mr. G in the row behind me. I finished first and he was 2nd in class. Things are fine.

Saturday morning I take off my 30+ heat cycled and split V710's for new ones and turn a high 41 which puts me 2nd overall and Mr G at that time was 15th overall. Well, for whatever reason todays grid is going to be grouped by class instead of overall fastest times!!! (decided after the warmup go figure) So basically my Q time won't matter if I'm 3 seconds faster than the next guy in my class and I will be gridded in the same row. Whatever....in the end it didn't work in his favor because I had a mechanical and didn't get to race.

The rest is history, my Sunday race lasted about 2 laps. My left front tire pulled off the bead in the carousel and another PS reservoir melted.

I am truly at a loss and have never been in this situation before. Just too many things going on not to raise some doubt. Suggestions anyone??? I don't consider myself a troublemaker and I don't want to be labled as one but this will not be tolerated next year so I am just looking for opinions on how to handle the situation. In my mind...Option 1- Write a similar letter to all NASA officials on my experience.
Option 2- Call Mr. G and TRY to have a conversation with him directly. Based on his actions I doubt that would get any serious results.

RAFTRACER

There will be strength in numbers my friend.......I am almost glad I didn't go just not to deal with the Greg Greenbaum regine (sp??)

MattB

Wow, that sucks. I hope things get better, I was hoping to do some TT racing in the future but I do not want to deal with people like this

XPC5R

They make the SCCA looks like choir boys
Sorry to hear this, the TT format seems like it would be great fun.

RAFTRACER

Stan,
these problems that you hear of are just growing pains of a new series that has a "dictator with a hard-on" approach to rule creation and interpretation. Saying that these guys make the SCCA look like choir boys seems a little unjust...........I have seen the SCCA make some awfully dumb decisions, just ask your boy Lou.
TT is awesome and as said they are just having some growing pains, hopefully they form a advisory comittee like SCCA solo for rules creation and interpretation and they will be just fine.
The thing for me is this ....travel 600 miles and get a total of 12 minutes in your car over an 8 day period, or go to a NASA TT event and get 240 minutes of seat time in a 3 day period.
Manual transmission in your car and come join this revolution (and they could use your expertise for rule legislation ) I have already offered my assistance........seeems like they dont like to listen to those that are setting records though.

Jess03Z06

Like Danny, I think NASA will sort this out and they have tried hard before to be fair to me, i know and respect a lot of the guys i know that run portions of it. Matt's post is clear enough that there is something for review and i expect NASA will respond to Matt directly. Not a lot that can be done now, but hopefully there will be some process to deal with similar situations should they occur.

rgs

Please don't compare SCCA Pro Racing (where Lou is having issues) to SCCA Club Racing, which is closer to NASA events with the big difference being a well defined set of rules. I volunteer for all types of roadracing including SCCA (Pro and Club), IMSA, CART, IRL, NASCAR, etc. and have helped participants in NASA events also. By far, I see more arbitrary decisions in NASA than SCCA Club. At least in SCCA Club, there is a defined path to appeal decisions which are outside the control of the individuals who made the original decision. NASA is more like "The Good Ole Boys Club". Who you know is more important than what you know or how well you do it. A friend of mine has been running NASA SOLO events and attempted to rise to Instructor status recently. His description of events, even if half were accurate, is filled with cronyism.

As for SCCA Pro, everyone must keep in mind that in every form of professional racing, actual racing is sacrificed for spectator attendance. Yes, there is racing, but it is adjusted to keep racing more exciting. Just look at Nascar's Top 10. At one event, I was instructed to "find" some debris on the track causing a full course yellow to bunch up the field. The issues Lou is dealing with are the same thing. Spectators don't want to see one individual run away wit the win race after race. Is it fair, no, but it helps put buts in seats which pays the bills.

Axelrod

All I gotta say is Somebody send this to Mr. G so he fully understand what they need to do better.

PorscheBoy

Let me try to respond where I can. First, I want to introduce myself as the OH/IN Region Time Trial Director for Nasa, John Graber. Many of you know who I am and I want to apologize to those who were potentially involved and affected by these issues. I think there was a lot of secondhand information flying around and it’s important we try and get to the facts and understand what really went on. I have participated in this forum before a few times because Danny Popp suggested I should. I certainly haven’t been hiding with a screen name like PorscheBoy. I also haven’t contacted anyone else within Nasa, including Greg Greenbaum over this post, and this response is only my interpretation of the events.

I have personally spoken to Danny Popp, Jesse White, Matt Carlyle and even John Slinkard, the S2000 driver, about the Championship event during and after. I think there are a couple of issues we need to try and clear up.

1) Running in the Nasa Championships - The requirement was 5 TT events in order to run in TT or and combination of 5 TT and Race events to race. I’m not sure if there were exceptions made as all those decisions were made by Bryan Cohn the Competition Director and not by Greg Greenbaum or me. I do know that exceptions were based on the driver’s commitment to Nasa and their individual run groups over the last several years. I fought battles for those I knew well and thought deserved.

2) Matt Carlyle’s C4 in TT - Matt appeared out on know where and ran one TT event in my region in August, a month before the Championship event. He won his class by a significant margin. Yes I questioned him briefly about his car; you can even search the Corvette Forums about it. I don’t feel it was unjustified. There was no indication he was going to try and participate in the Championships. I know everyone in the region extremely well and communicate often with them to assure compliance and participation in a fair manner. Matt chose to double dip and run TT and PT at Summit Point a few weeks before the event, in another region, in order to qualify. I was asked by Greg Greenbaum about him, and frankly I didn’t know much beyond what I’ve already told you. Matt was told he could not run TT, as the rules clearly stated, and that is the end of that. Did Greg’s running in TTC influence the decision? Maybe, but he didn’t qualify anyway and I frankly didn’t offer any support. There is no reason to continue to debate this.

3) Late Entry / Car Swapping – Matt and John got together sometime late Friday or early Saturday and decided to try and have John run the C4. I’m not sure how or when this was brought to Greg, but they clearly didn’t like the answers they received. John came to me and I went to Greg and hashed out the issue. The car would be allowed to run as I told John, but they would have to make special provision for us based on late entry in order to be certain the car was classed properly. I believe this is what Greg tried to communicate to them, but he’s an MD and not a Public Relations Manager so it may not have come across like it should have. Bottom line, John could have run that car. The issue was simple. Everyone else had their cars available and class forms submitted since Wednesday night. Any late entry would require special handling or may be denied the ability to run. For instance, I personally spoke to Danny every day, stood in for him in meetings, and assured everyone he would be admitted and treated fairly based on my efforts so he would have a chance to run. Obviously, I can’t be all things to all people, but a huge effort was put forth. Matt’s car broke and he was not able to run in TT Saturday afternoon. Anyone who says it wasn’t allowed to run is simply mistaken. The first I heard of the issue was when John came to me to discuss it and I went right in and rectified the situation.

4) Dyno Requirements – Technically the TTC class was run by John Anderson the NorCal TT Director. He was officially assigned the duties and everyone was notified in the first Championship correspondence Greg sent out. It was simply his decision. I gave him my input, but it was his decision. For the record , Greg’s car went to the dyno, but as expected it offered little information. John has also inspected the car before and I reviewed the class form myself Wednesday night. The combination of penalty points he was taking was inline with the estimated HP the car put out and then some, so the dyno results offered nothing. From my perspective, Matt’s car appeared to have more power than the penalty points seemed to afford, and therefore was targeted for the dyno if it were to run. I also had two different TTC drivers come to me during the event questioning the power on that car. I don’t feel the request to run it on the dyno was unreasonable, although the request to run it before the sessions seemed a little much I must admit. Again, I’m not sure that was the communication, but that was the interpretation from John and Matt. To my knowledge I rectified the situation. Know one came to me again to discuss the dyno issue or pre-run requirements. In fact, the 2nd place TTC driver, Jeff Diffenderfer, made a point to tell me he felt Greg’s car was legal and had no complaints after running nose to tail with him Saturday afternoon. He’s a guy who won his class all year in the region until Matt beat him last month.

5) PT Grid – I also happen to be the PT, Performance Touring, Director for the OH/IN Region. The group has had little participation up to this point, but the Championships should provide a big boost for 2007. Basically the TT rules apply, but in a racing format. Anyway, although I had no power in the decision making for PT, I did participate in the Race Director meetings and learn of some of the decisions that were made and why. Simply put we could either grid by overall time like TT or grid by time within class. In TT we grid by overall time because it’s the best lap time that constitutes the winner and finishing position is meaningless. In PT it’s all about finishing position. The decision was made to grid by class and then time in order to facilitate a better race within the respective classes. The faster cars were on their respective poles and if they were faster should win. I think it was a good decision and would suggest it be incorporated into future PT events. I will do it for OH/IN in the future if the Regional Race Director agrees. Also, for reference, there were eight different Race Directors none of which had ever been to Mid Ohio. The goal was to bring an unbiased opinion to the event and use their individual expertise to run the best race possible.

6) TT Rules & Future Regional Events – It is clear from numerous posts and discussion that there are issues that need to be addressed within the existing TT rules. The FRC, EVO, and the ability to double HP by replacing stock twin turbo’s (i.e. Audi S4) needs to be addressed. I’m not looking to debate these today, but assure you we will continue to do our best to make the playing field as level as possible. Hopefully there are some out there who will provide data and input to help refine these rules. I already have offers from some of you. I also commend Jesse for stepping up when he had a rule issue and for rectifying the situation because “that’s what the rules said,” regardless of whether he agreed or not.

7) Future Championships – The rules for the Championships need to be tightened to eliminate these issues. We can do things case by case, or we can establish a hard set of rules for late entry or car swapping. Perhaps we won’t allow them at all and then the issue would go away. During regional events it’s easier to be flexible since I know everyone and I’m in charge, but at the Championships it’s tough. As Danny said several times “it’s for a National Championship for Christ sakes.” There is no doubt in my mind next year the competition will be bigger, faster and more purpose build. The original intent of TT was to provide a format for street based cars to compete. It’s evolving into a much higher level of competition, but the opportunity still exists for almost anyone to bring their car out and compete. Developing a system to accommodate all of these items is a monumental task.

This Time Trial format is probably one of the greatest innovations in amateur competitive racing and Drivers Ed events to come along in years. The set-up is not perfect, but the concepts should provide a competitive environment for many years to come. Greg Greenbaum personally got this program off the ground by spending countless hours developing the rules and countless hours traveling to almost every region this year. For the most part, Greg has done this all on his own and unpaid. Yes he likes to participate and win, but I think he has been very fair and is being unfairly singled out during some of these discussions. I am in the same boat. I like to win, but it’s not in the cards for my car or my driving skills today. I do this because I enjoy it and I’m not getting paid either. Last month at Mid Ohio we had the largest turnout all year and I didn’t even drive. To suggest we have ulterior motives and favoritism is absurd.

Once again I apologize for any miscommunication. I hope you understand what it takes to put together an event like the Championships, or even just a regular regional event. I personally hope you all come back and that those that haven’t participated give us a try. If you want to discuss any other specific issues please feel free to contact me directly. Also, please check us out at www.Nasa-TT.com Hope to see you at Putnam!

John

jlucas

John, Kudos to you for trying to clear things up.

mrc24x

Hi John,
First let me say thank you for all you do w/ NASA and I do appreciate what Greg has done with the TT and PT programs. I wouldn't want to run anywhere else. If you believe that there was not any favoritism or ulterior motives then I'll accept that and move on. However, I stand by my above post as facts from the event. In the future I would expect that NASA would do everything in their power to prevent even a hint of favoritism or manipulation of the rules.

Regarding my qualifying for Nationals.....I stated above that I understand that I didn't meet the letter of the rules and I don't have a problem with that. My problem is how some others were allowed to compete that didn't meet the requirements??? If it truly was based on the level of commitment to NASA then where do I stand??? NASA is the only car organization that I have ever run with..... Mid Ohio April HPDE 1 Sat. HPDE 2 SUN
July HPDE 2 Fri HPDE 3 Sat HPDE 3 SUN
Aug MO Comp shool Thur TT FRI/SAT/SUN
Aug Summit Point TT Sat TT/PT Sun
Sept..Nationals
Roughly $3500 in entry fees/school and 11 track days prior to Nationals.

Not exactly out of no where but I understand that it's not your responsibility to track this stuff. Maybe next year someone will if that is the "real" criteria to qualify.

Anyways, this is probably wearing on you as much as it is me. Not much more to add other than if anyone is following this don't be affraid to come out and run with us. John and the OH/In region put on a great event so come out and play!!
C you at Putnam

RAFTRACER

I have been a SCCA member for many,many moons.........I know that SCCA Pro has issues, especially if you are fielding a Corvette right now. I additionally know that SCCA club is somewhat different, although people such as Scotty White with the negative adjustment on T1 Vipers probably has something to say. I have been involved in SCCA solo for way too long and have seen things good, bad , and ugly as far as rules , car classifications, protests ,appeals,clarifications .etc,etc, go.

NASA will be no different , although what they are doing (TT) for me is a breath of fresh air. This is a new program with a brand new rules set. Combined with the fact that they were having their inaugural National Championship event and getting their directors together to manage such an event for the first time has led to the revelation that there are some problems to deal with,loopholes to close, hopefully a better understanding of what they need to work on for the future.

Bottom line is...........all sanctioning bodies have their "issues" , and will continue to have issues. The organization that listens best to their competitors (or customers) will thrive the most. I haven't been involved yet in SCCA club racing, but I can tell you that the SCCA solo program in my mind has made a turn for the worse in the last few years, making it now where near as fun or equitable for the amount of seat time that you receive...............espeically if you have a Corvette, which we all do right ????? Smaller , tighter autox courses no longer cut-it......... On top of rules breaks for turbo cars, AWD cars,Variable valve timing cars, but none for a push-rod V8, while saying that they cant police this stuff (which they could) , I believe is partially "politically" motivated by the sponsors the SCCA seaks out (ie; OEM manufactureres), whcih unfortunately are never

RAFTRACER

Porsheboy.....(porchboy),
Again as others have said thanks for coming onto this forum and speaking on behalf of NASA. I look forward to attending my next NASA event (wherever that may be) , soon , and plan on bringing other newbies with me. I know that in time some of the rule "issues" I have will be addressed (especially entrance into TTR), shocks, ecm tuning( I still say Jesse was hosed), and a few others.............and will hopefully be consistant throughout the rules .
I do have one thing to re-mention here from your above post. The dyno does not indicate the class in relation to Matt's car or any other. The base class + points do. The class structure is based on pwr-wt ratios for base class assessment. Matt's car seemed to be heavily scrutinized for some reason from the get go, just like mine. I honestly believe if I would have been able to show , Greg ,you and I would have been going round and round like a merry-go-round. Jesse's 5 pt ECM tuning , was crap too, because all aftermarket single-shot tunes (Hypertech,Diablo,SCT) all modify AFR's and timing. I got a good laugh today when Buzz borught his car down and his data link connector was taped..........like it mattered his car was free of this anyhow, he couldnt have enough points for TTR.
Anyway hopefully they look into this advisory comittee thing, I know it would help.......rules and clarifications decided by a panel, rather than your competitor that wants to win too................

BTW , John, Thanks for taking my place at those meetings and trying to make arrangements for me to arrive if I could.

Jess03Z06

John i just want to thank you for the time you took and the clarity of the response. It was needed and is well appreciated. I'll probably do Road America instead but good luck at Putnam!

Axelrod

That's humorous indeed! Somebody was afraid the Matrix was gonna connect his car and launch the afterburner!

On turbo cars, a hidden switch for "overboost" is an easy thing. What color tape do they cover the whole interior with ?

varkwso

John - very nice response. NASA is a great organization - not perfect - and does seem to vary a bit across the nation. I have been a member and participant for several years. Having been in many volunteer organizations and the public eye several times it helps when they send your officials to "charm school". The "appearance of impropriety" can cause your organization irreparable harm - "probable cause" is not really part of the equation - all of your officials actions need to be "above reproach" in an ideal world.

My son and I will be running with NASA several more times this year and plan a full season next year.

ScaryFast

I discovered NASA last year and have run about 8 events since (a bunch of M-O, Beaverun, etc). I have nearly stopped using any other club because of my positive experiences there. My only reason to run with anyone else is to get time at places like Mosport (NASA take note - add this track to the list for 2007!).

However, I am discouraged by all of these rule issues. My plan was to run TT this year. Unfortunately, after a blown motor kept me off the track until August, I wasn't able to get enough events in to attempt nationals. I think I'm glad I did not.

I'll probably give it a shot next season, but unless some of these concerns are resolved in the off season I may not bother. I'll just stick to HPDE 4 and have fun.

I have no doubt that my car will end up being a source of controversey as well, as the mods I've done were done over time and not with any particular set of rules in mind. It appears that even though I'm in an "old C4", the fact that I ripped out the interior and added some power means I'll be stuck in TTU or worse...even though my assessment on the NASA TT site says TTB.

Falcon

Trying to equate the different makes of cars with rules is like trying to find the common denominator between Juan Valdez's coffee beans and The Financial Accounting Board's thoughts on Accounting for Intangible Assets. The task is daunting, almost overwhelming, and full of non-equivalencies.

It will take time to refine the rules on modifications and car makes. Those smart enough will take advantage where they see rule loopholes, but as time passes, those loopholes will be closed.

IMHO, the most important thing NASA can do is be consistent in their rulings throughout the year and at the Championships. A ruling came up that I'm aware of that could have been an issue, but luckily wasn't.

I know Greg worked his *** off keeping us all abreast of the latest changes, but even he has difficulty forseeing some issues. Publishing a more detailed description of some mods would be helpful since when we're unsure we have to have him elaborate further, which can cause misunderstandings for those who weren't part of the conversation.

BTW, I appreciate John Graber coming on and giving NASA's side of the C4 issue.

Oh, if anyone needs a crewmember for next year's Nationals, give me a call.

RAFTRACER

No one likes a quitter............... But if you are really not going to compete , I am sure I could use the help.............that is if they fix some of the things that I have concerns about, otherwise I may be like you .

Jess03Z06

Hey ScaryFast, there is an alternative weight scheme you can take that will keep from getting you clobbered for taking things out of the car as long as you weigh within 100 pounds of the OEM weight. If you have a cage you may be closer than you think. You can also add ballast up to I think 30lbs. After that you will take points. Don't give up without a careful read, but yes you may have to take things off to keep in a reasonable class. Its still fun to see your times and work on them so give it a shot...

Jody you can be sure i will be my on crew again next year so you are welcome to the crew chief position... If you stay retired all us would sure love to have you there. Of course we would rather race you again