How benificial would a big Wing be for autocrossing?
10-02-2006, 12:18 PM
#1
Safety Car
Thread Starter
How benificial would a big Wing be for autocrossing?
So I've seen the pictures from nationals and it looks like the players in SM-II are running these huge gawd afull looking wings.
So do you think we would see much benifit from one of these things? Most of the speeds we carry at autocrosses are between 40 and 90 mph or so.. Would we see much traction gain?
And where are they buying these monstrosities? Are they permanently mounted or is it a put on take off thing?
So do you think we would see much benifit from one of these things? Most of the speeds we carry at autocrosses are between 40 and 90 mph or so.. Would we see much traction gain?
And where are they buying these monstrosities? Are they permanently mounted or is it a put on take off thing?
10-02-2006, 12:57 PM
#2
A well designed single or double element wing can make at least 100-150lbs of downforce at 50mph. 4x that at 100mph. You need to balance this with some front downforce for best effect (that's why you see the big splitters).
Lots of them are home built for components from APR. I use one from here.
Lots of them are home built for components from APR. I use one from here.
Last edited by XPC5R; 10-02-2006 at 12:59 PM.
10-02-2006, 01:41 PM
#4
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: Boston, Dallas, Detroit, SoCal, back to Boston MA
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At low speeds, spoilers, like those legal in Street Prepared, actually make more downforce, more drag too.
The SM2 guys can use body kits, so if you wanted to show up with this complete with diffusers, you could do it!
The SM2 guys can use body kits, so if you wanted to show up with this complete with diffusers, you could do it!
Last edited by BrianCunningham; 10-02-2006 at 01:45 PM.
10-02-2006, 01:49 PM
#5
Former Vendor
This is the type of wing I will be iceracing this year. We hit about 120-130 down the long straights. Is it bling? I think people are going to look at me funny towing a car something like this.
Randy
Randy
10-02-2006, 02:19 PM
#6
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by Randy@DRM
This is the type of wing I will be iceracing this year. We hit about 120-130 down the long straights. Is it bling? I think people are going to look at me funny towing a car something like this.
Randy
Randy
That is the most odd looking thing I have ever seen on a car.
10-02-2006, 03:26 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
Hmmm, reminds me of a t-shirt I recently saw of an STi and big-a$$ wing on the back. It said, "Silly Ricer - Wings are for Planes" 
I've been reading - Competition Car Aerodynamics: A practical handbook by Simon McBeath. Now it gets into Computational Fluid Dynamics. But not to the point of you needing to be an Aerospace Engineer. It appears that CFD can be used to design wings/spoilers/splitters etc without needing a wind tunnel to test all the ideas.
A very basic and simple single element wing with 6-14deg of pitch can create considerable downforce but also drag. More complicated wing designs can help with downforce and not create as much drag. I was looking at the splitter and wing on the C5R and the WC cars for ideas.
I was thinking more for track purposes where high speed and stability would be nice. Never thought about it for autox. But XPC5R makes a good point on how much down force can be made fairly easily. The biggest thing I see about getting power down to the ground in autox. There are so many elements that you have to slow way down and getting into the power at under 30mph I don't see how the wing helps.
Oh and Randy, you just ain't right buddy
I've been reading - Competition Car Aerodynamics: A practical handbook by Simon McBeath. Now it gets into Computational Fluid Dynamics. But not to the point of you needing to be an Aerospace Engineer. It appears that CFD can be used to design wings/spoilers/splitters etc without needing a wind tunnel to test all the ideas.
A very basic and simple single element wing with 6-14deg of pitch can create considerable downforce but also drag. More complicated wing designs can help with downforce and not create as much drag. I was looking at the splitter and wing on the C5R and the WC cars for ideas.
I was thinking more for track purposes where high speed and stability would be nice. Never thought about it for autox. But XPC5R makes a good point on how much down force can be made fairly easily. The biggest thing I see about getting power down to the ground in autox. There are so many elements that you have to slow way down and getting into the power at under 30mph I don't see how the wing helps.
Oh and Randy, you just ain't right buddy
10-02-2006, 03:33 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
It would look neat, but I think you'd be wasting your time and money. It takes quite a while to get the angle just right so that you're getting the most downforce with the least amount of drag. Unless you have your own windtunnel....
10-02-2006, 04:02 PM
#11
Safety Car
Thread Starter
Originally Posted by wtknght1
It would look neat, but I think you'd be wasting your time and money. It takes quite a while to get the angle just right so that you're getting the most downforce with the least amount of drag. Unless you have your own windtunnel....
I had one installed in the garage for a wile. But the neighborhood association told me that in chapter 5 paragragh 2 subchapter C. It specifically states that jet engines are to be run past 7:00pm.. And right below it was the wind tunnel exclusionary phrase.
So now I have to go to NASA and borrow theirs.
10-02-2006, 04:38 PM
#13
Former Vendor
Just for the books, that is not my car. But I am building something like it for my little shix box. That will be pushing 300 to the wheels by race day. 300 whp, 1650 pounds, on ice, I think it will help. Iceracing= gives us stupid people something to do in the winter time.
Randy
Randy
10-02-2006, 04:42 PM
#15
I can feel mine shortly after getting into 2nd gear (around 40mph). When I went to just the spoiler, the big improvement was high speed corner entry stability. The wing actually helped power down in the middle of 2nd gear, where the car used to spin the tires a lot, it now just hooks up (need more power now!)
Most of the solo cars (SM, SM2 etc) that use them have at least 400 rwhp, so drag is not too much of a problem, traction is.
Most of the solo cars (SM, SM2 etc) that use them have at least 400 rwhp, so drag is not too much of a problem, traction is.
10-02-2006, 04:48 PM
#16
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by wtknght1
I've used my mother-in-law and ex-wife in the past... 
Seriously though, I've been toying w/ the idea of buying a 2nd deck-lid to install a wing on.
-TJ
10-02-2006, 05:47 PM
#17
Team Owner
Member Since: Mar 2001
Location: Boston, Dallas, Detroit, SoCal, back to Boston MA
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It's a sprint car wing
Which make a lot of downforce, but is setup for a car that turns left all the time.
I'm sure you guys have seen autocross A-Mod wings
These make a lot of downforce.
For a track car, you can make downforce w/o the wings, but it takes a lot of aero work, and you need to run the car real close to the ground.
Which make a lot of downforce, but is setup for a car that turns left all the time.
I'm sure you guys have seen autocross A-Mod wings
These make a lot of downforce.
For a track car, you can make downforce w/o the wings, but it takes a lot of aero work, and you need to run the car real close to the ground.
10-02-2006, 06:32 PM
#18
Le Mans Master
A customer car from the AIX site posted above by XPC5R
BEFORE reading XPC5R's remark and the testimonial of Stan W.,
the owner of the car above, I would have said that wings and Aero
in general are begin to become benefical at 70+ MPH. But Stan W.
states improvement over the previously mounted spoiler and all at
max speeds of 55 in a 420+ RWHP C5.
Interesting.
I've read that front splitters are VERY sensitive to sizing/tuning.
I sure hope people put adequate thought into how those things are
mounted considering the forces generated and the consequences
of failure.
.
BEFORE reading XPC5R's remark and the testimonial of Stan W.,
the owner of the car above, I would have said that wings and Aero
in general are begin to become benefical at 70+ MPH. But Stan W.
states improvement over the previously mounted spoiler and all at
max speeds of 55 in a 420+ RWHP C5.
Interesting.
I've read that front splitters are VERY sensitive to sizing/tuning.
I sure hope people put adequate thought into how those things are
mounted considering the forces generated and the consequences
of failure.
.
10-02-2006, 07:10 PM
#19
Team Owner
Originally Posted by Randy@DRM
This is the type of wing I will be iceracing this year. We hit about 120-130 down the long straights. Is it bling? I think people are going to look at me funny towing a car something like this.
Randy
Randy
j/k
