mcintex

A couple of months ago I signed up for an HPDE event on 11/11-12 with a local group that I have run with before (called the Drivers Edge). They are known for their safety, organization and overall value. I have done one (1) other HPDE with them. Last night, I received this in my email.

Green (Novice) & Blue “Non-Solo Approved” Run Group Drivers Tire Requirements

The newer generations of driver’s school applicants often bring vehicles whose performance is far beyond their driving ability. Because of this the Drivers Edge Board of Directors passed the following resolution that requires the vehicle to more closely match the driver's ability.

Note: A driver with out proper training before going to race tires is a disadvantage, race tire mask many mistakes and slow learning of lower level drivers down, may also create a safety hazard.

Non-solo applicants - Those drivers who have not soloed at Drivers Edge events.
Vehicle must be Registered and Street Legal
Vehicle must be insured
Vehicle must have DOT Street Tires
The following tires, while DOT legal, are prohibited for non-solos:

Michelin Pilot Sport Cup
BFG Comp T/A R1
BFG Comp T/A R1 gForce
BFG Comp T/A R1/A gForce
BFG Comp T/A Drag Radial
Hankook Z211
Hoosier A3S03
Hoosier R3S03
Hoosier R3S04
Hoosier A3S04
Hoosier Autocrosser/Street TD
Yokohama A032R
Yokohama A022A
Yokohama A008R
Kumho V700
Kumho V700 Victoracer
Kumo Ecsta V 700
Kumo Ecsta V710
Goodyear GS-CS
Goodyear AS-CS F1
Nitto NT555R
Toyo Proxes RA-1
Pirelli P Zero "C"
Pirelli P Zero Corsa
Pirelli Corsa
Mickey Thompson (ALL)
Any shaved tires or tires with inadequate tread depth

Thanks for the advance notice. There was no mention of this on their website, or in the documentation that they sent to me after registering. I am not complaining about the safety part, but I do wish they had given me some advance notice

AU N EGL

More and More HPDE car clubs are also going to the NO DOT-R or R compounds Policy and requirnments for Novice though Intermedate student groups. A few clubs also say No R or DOT R on NON- Race prepped and log book approved race cars as well.

No R or DOT-R tires rules is the norm not the exception. That is the first list where specifc tires were mentioned.

Students can learn far more about their cars handling dynamics on STREET tires then R componds.

I did my first 10-12 HPDEs on Mich PS tires or GY Run flats.

Mojave

Wow, I wonder when this was added. I have run several events with Driver's Edge (last one in May), and this is news to me.

Luckily for me, I'm already solo approved.

96GS#007

It's not unusual. Various PCA and BMW events are run that way as well (although I think it's a local decision by each club not a national decision ). What they're saying is true but I can understand your frustration if you went out and made a purchase and then got the e-mail. For HPDEs, if you just bought tires they'll be good for next year

I've instructed new folks running track tires and most don't even get R tires up to temp so they're just wasting money by using them.

The problem I see with a specific list is that it's a management nightmare for the organizer. In the list above, they mention several Hoosier tires. No doubt at some point someone will show up with Hoosier R6s or A6s and get the boot. Then they'll give the organizers a rash of trouble because the tires weren't on the ban list. They also list the Nitto 555R. What about the 555RII or the NT01?

Just my 2 cents and general rambling this morning

talon95

I'm not familiar with that organization at all, but this seems like a good idea. I've been running autocross events for 10 years, but until last weekend, had never driven a PDE type event.

Even though I have 2 full sets of Hoosiers in my garage, I intentionally handicapped myself by running on my street tires last weekend at Hallett (HST event). I did this for the very reasons these requirements are being put in place.

It was still loads of fun, the car was still plenty fast, and I'm 100% certain the street tires were much safer than the Hoosiers for a track novice.

Just my .02,
Dave G.

freefall

I agree with the concept - no r-compounds in those run groups, but requiring all people new to their events to run streets regardless of experience is a bit extreme.

the blur

there are valid disagreements to the above argument.

A set of street tires will be ruined rather quickly on the track. Especially the outer tread blocks will show the most wear. Now a nice set of street tires will be compromised for street driving in adverse weather conditions.

Also, in my early days, I flat spotted street tires at an auto-x. Now my nice set of street tires were garbage. After that I got R tires, and I can "accept" tire destruction.

ScaryFast

Like many things, this is a slippery slope. Perhaps a minimum tread wear rating would be a better way to police this than naming specific tires or brands. How does the treadwear of an "R" tire compare to a sticky street tire, like a Kumho Ecsta MX (isn't that the one that many use as a crossover?)

I think I disagree with this idea, though. While I'm on board with learning a car before making it faster, why don't they outlaw big turbos, boost controllers, wings, headers, etc. in the novice group? Why single out tires, which are actually a safety item? If the point of the ruling is to make the driver faster before the car then targeting only tires will prove ineffective.

In addition, even when I was a novice driving a Taurus SHO, I would out drive my street tires and destroy them. A set of R's would last several events, a set of street radials would chunk and be ruined in a weekend. It was a heavy car.

robvuk

I like this line of thinking. I have been racing everything from drag racers and superbikes to HPDE's lately. Even though I have dozens of years of experience, I prefer to run street tires. I just like the convenience of driving to the track, having a blast and then driving home. I might not have the same kind of speed capabilities of many of the others at the track, but through the skills I've learned, I don't have much trouble keeping up with most of the other highly modified cars. I could start going much faster with race tires or putting cams and headers on my car but that won't make me a better driver. It's all relative. I think that anyone in the first couple of race groups, should be required to use street tires. But then that's just an opinion and I'm sure there are other instructors that may have valid reasons for doing what they do.

AUTO_X_AL

robvuk

I agree that naming brands is not a good idea. Tires in general are the single most important thing you can do to make a car faster. Aftermarket turbos, wings, headers, etc. are not nearly as relavent. As an autocrosser, you know that a far lesser car with good tires will easily outrun a Corvette with runflats in those types of events.

As far as street tires falling apart in track use, I'll partially agree here too. My experience is that the softer street compounds will of course get torn up fast. But that will sort itself out in time. It took years for people to settle on specific brands of race tires as being the best. It will do the same for street tires. You can find tires that will have a price/longevity/performance ratio that will be acceptable.

rbl

Too:

A lot of hype about this so called "R" tire and learn the car business. Just because you have a good tire on the car does not mean you will try to go faster than you should or not learn anything about your car .... else you instructor is asleep and you're probably going to have a problem even with an extra set of trainer wheels on.

This outfit needs to lighten up and get the big chest and the ego off the plate and have an enjoyable event for everyone. The rubber isn't going to make that happen one way or the other.

Any group or club that would go so far as to actually publish a banned list of rubber, which is also incomplete, is suspect in itself and I would re-think my participation with them.

yakisoba

I have to say, I agree with this. TDE runs four groups: Green, Blue, Yellow and Red. You're talking about limiting one group and most of another (there are few solo blue drivers) a bit, which isn't bad. About the only advantage a new driver has coming onto a road course is that they likely drive that car every day. It makes sense to stick with what's familiar.

I remember it was a big adjustment to go to sticky tires when I did it, and it took a while to build speed up again.

undertaker

what happens to us people wit 700 rwhp cars that have to drive on r compound rubber all the time regardless.

it was actually funny you'd think the instructors would have been running away vs. fighting for the passenger seat and a thrill ride at watkins glen with a novice.

FB#1

Wonder what they do with a "track only" car that doesn't run street tires ?

AU N EGL

Most newbies dont really have a track only car.

This is one reason to read the web pages or driver info about an event.

At our NCM events we STRONGLY recomend that Novice and Beginner students run on street tires. If someone shows up with R compound, we are not going to kick them out, but recomend they let their in car instructor know. The instructor will adjust accordingly.

ScaryFast

I would think that most novices are running the tires that came on the car. I doubt there are folks that are buying track only tires that are NOT R's, but I suppose I could be mistaken. I would expect that anyone who is ponying up the money for a second set of rims and tires is going to put R's on them.

talon95

Part of the problem is that some of the R tires are much harder to drive on than others. Most of them are less forgiving and many of them change dramatically with temperature. For example, the A6's I run in for autox are slick as hell below 60-70deg, and when they overheat, they are equally as slippery.

Admittedly, most people wouldn't show up with A6's, but some might if that's what they have in the garage (like me).

I'm not necessarily advocating the rules in the original post, but just that encouraging new people to run on street tires is a good idea. Although my car is easy on tires ('03 Z), it didn't do any damage at all to my Kumho MX's. They look almost as they did before the event (4 - 15min sessions).

Dave G.

VetteDrmr

Umm, I think I'm going to respectfully disagree with this POV. R compound tires, IMO, aren't a *safety* item, but a performance item. Regardless of what power the car is putting down, the car will be traction limited for a novice. Put that traction limit higher and the novice will get their speed up higher before they get into trouble (with greater consequences). Plus, street tires whine at the least provocation, which also leads novices (novi?) to back off a bit.

As far as chewing up street tires goes, I'm on the fence. Yes, the R compound tires will live longer (being in their design element), but the instructor should also be able to get the student to ease off to preserve the street tires as well.

Good thread!

Have a good one,
Mike

Too Tall Bob

While I do agree that 99.9% of all novices probably don't run soft rubber or heavy engine mods, I will tell you that there are certain groups that I have run across at events where the drivers were all trying to "Keep up with the Jones's".

One group in particular recently was at a National Convention for this particular "High-end" marque (Mercedes, of all things) that I was helping instruct at, and almost all of the 50+ drivers had never been on a roadcourse before. However, several of them showed up with a set of brand new rims with Hoosier slicks mounted, pyrometers, gas cans filled with 100 octane gas, lap timers, new driving suits, etc.

The funny part was when we asked one of these drivers what he was going to do with his "new" pyrometer, he replied, "I have no idea what it's used for, but someone else in the club said they were bringing one, so I thought I'd better get one too.!!"

We've all seen a few newbies come to their first event and want to be the fastest, and they end up showing up at their second event with all the latest "Go-fast" gear, so there may be some validity to restricting Novice drivers from going a little too far in the beginning.

In fact, wasn't there an incident recently at Willow Springs where an inexperienced female driver was seriously injured at her second event after her B/F had installed quite a bit of go-fast equipment on her EVO, including softer tires?