Corvette Quarterly article on C6ZO6 brakes
12-10-2006, 06:17 PM
#1
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Corvette Quarterly article on C6ZO6 brakes
Did anyone see this article? What a joke! We now know that the 26 pound left side only rotors with worse than worthless holes are sourced from Brembo, and the "Performance engineer" at GM that approved this kludge braking system is named Tony Rifici. I wish he would call me, I would like to know if he ever has used what he had a hand in. The quote I love is "...we developed the ZO6 brake system to sustain a capable driver running flat-out through a full tank of fuel". That is a great spec, change pads every tank of gas at a track day. They even mention that the multiple pad caliper was so that the pad taper was evened out. That certainly did not happen, this is the worst pad taper I have ever had in any brake. Did Mr. Rifici ever use this trash? Have you ever heard of System Engineering trade studies? Just very sad....
Gary Hoffman
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Gary Hoffman
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Last edited by ghoffman; 12-10-2006 at 06:53 PM.
12-10-2006, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ghoffman
Did anyone see this article? What a joke! We now know that the 26 pound left side only rotors with worse than worthless holes are sourced from Brembo, and the "Performance engineer" at GM that approved this kludge braking system is named Tony Rifici. I wish he would call me, I would like to know if he ever has used what he had a hand in. The quote I love is "...we developed the ZO6 brake system to sustain a capable driver running flat-out through a full tank of fuel". That is a great spec, change pads every tank of gas at a track day. They even mention that the multiple pad caliper was so that the pad taper was evened out. That certainly did not happen, this is the worst pad taper I have ever had in any brake. Did Mr. Rifici ever use this trash? Have you ever heard of System Engineering trade studies? Just very sad....
Gary Hoffman
cell 603-682-8073
Gary Hoffman
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12-10-2006, 08:05 PM
#5
Team Owner
Originally Posted by ghoffman
Did anyone see this article? What a joke! We now know that the 26 pound left side only rotors with worse than worthless holes are sourced from Brembo, and the "Performance engineer" at GM that approved this kludge braking system is named Tony Rifici. I wish he would call me, I would like to know if he ever has used what he had a hand in. The quote I love is "...we developed the ZO6 brake system to sustain a capable driver running flat-out through a full tank of fuel". That is a great spec, change pads every tank of gas at a track day. They even mention that the multiple pad caliper was so that the pad taper was evened out. That certainly did not happen, this is the worst pad taper I have ever had in any brake. Did Mr. Rifici ever use this trash? Have you ever heard of System Engineering trade studies? Just very sad....
Gary Hoffman
cell 603-682-8073
Gary Hoffman
cell 603-682-8073
Stop holding back Gary and tell it like it is!
I heard statement before about the tank of fuel. After seeing the results what better engineering can you ask for they hit the nail on the head. They last one tank of fuel, mission accomplished!
Mr. Rifici
12-10-2006, 08:43 PM
#7
Team Owner
Gary now needs to buy a boat so he has something to do with the rotors.
I had a 25' boat and the anchor wasn't 26 lbs. I will weigh it tommorow even though the boat is gone 20 years the anchor survives in my shed.
Gary you need to send GM a brake set up so they don't F up the Blue Devil!
I had a 25' boat and the anchor wasn't 26 lbs. I will weigh it tommorow even though the boat is gone 20 years the anchor survives in my shed.Gary you need to send GM a brake set up so they don't F up the Blue Devil!
Last edited by John Shiels; 12-10-2006 at 08:46 PM.
12-10-2006, 08:49 PM
#8
Safety Car
Originally Posted by John Shiels
Gary now needs to buy a boat so he has something to do with the rotors. I had a 25' boat and the anchor wasn't 26 lbs. I will weigh it tommorow even though the boat is gone 20 years the anchor survives in my shed.
Gary you need to send GM a brake set up so they don't F up the Blue Devil!
I had a 25' boat and the anchor wasn't 26 lbs. I will weigh it tommorow even though the boat is gone 20 years the anchor survives in my shed.Gary you need to send GM a brake set up so they don't F up the Blue Devil!
12-11-2006, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by MarkBychowski
If I remember correctly wasn't the article titled "brakes that bite" or something like that? Pretty appropriate, I guess 
.
.
12-11-2006, 07:44 AM
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What is really funny, is that the close-up picture in the article shows that the hex socket in one of the pins is rounded out, just like most people do in the real world! The aluminum threads in the caliper is raw and the pins corrode themselves into the caliper rapidly. If you have to keep these, remove the pins when new and coat the threads with anti-seize, oil, grease, whatever.
The article talks about testing at the 'Ring and Spa. Seems to me that is for advertising bling. For that budget they could have spent alot more time at Road America, Watkins Glen, VIR, Sebring, etc and found out how bad they suck before production.
The article talks about testing at the 'Ring and Spa. Seems to me that is for advertising bling. For that budget they could have spent alot more time at Road America, Watkins Glen, VIR, Sebring, etc and found out how bad they suck before production.
Last edited by ghoffman; 12-11-2006 at 08:00 AM.
12-11-2006, 08:48 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
While I agree that apparently the brakes on all of our cars are woefully inadaquate, they are probably looking at the results at a fast track like the "ring", with stock runcraps... In that case maybe the brakes wouldn't be considered as big a disaster......
It all comes down to the design "mission" cycle... The guys working on it probably thought they got the job done, Hienrocket took it to the ring, did his thing, pronounced it good, and they all went home happy...
Then we slap on a set of DOT slicks, go to a more brake intensive track, and end up with a disaster...
Do they need more cooling, better calipers, and more rotor life, for what we are doing, sure, but for 99% of what the car is going to see, they are probably fine....
The only thing is that they shouldn't pronounce the car "track ready" unless it really is. I would venture a guess that Chevrolet has NEVER produced a Corvette that, from the factory, had brakes that could hold up to a track day. The problem is that there is just too much power to dispose of, and each year they put in more power and the brakes just can't keep up....
Bottom line, if you are going to seriously track a Corvette, brake upgrades are a requirement, so you kinda gotta get over it and accep it as a fact of life.....
It all comes down to the design "mission" cycle... The guys working on it probably thought they got the job done, Hienrocket took it to the ring, did his thing, pronounced it good, and they all went home happy...
Then we slap on a set of DOT slicks, go to a more brake intensive track, and end up with a disaster...
Do they need more cooling, better calipers, and more rotor life, for what we are doing, sure, but for 99% of what the car is going to see, they are probably fine....
The only thing is that they shouldn't pronounce the car "track ready" unless it really is. I would venture a guess that Chevrolet has NEVER produced a Corvette that, from the factory, had brakes that could hold up to a track day. The problem is that there is just too much power to dispose of, and each year they put in more power and the brakes just can't keep up....
Bottom line, if you are going to seriously track a Corvette, brake upgrades are a requirement, so you kinda gotta get over it and accep it as a fact of life.....
12-11-2006, 09:39 AM
#13
Team Owner
Originally Posted by Solofast
While I agree that apparently the brakes on all of our cars are woefully inadaquate, they are probably looking at the results at a fast track like the "ring", with stock runcraps... In that case maybe the brakes wouldn't be considered as big a disaster......
It all comes down to the design "mission" cycle... The guys working on it probably thought they got the job done, Hienrocket took it to the ring, did his thing, pronounced it good, and they all went home happy...
Then we slap on a set of DOT slicks, go to a more brake intensive track, and end up with a disaster...
Do they need more cooling, better calipers, and more rotor life, for what we are doing, sure, but for 99% of what the car is going to see, they are probably fine....
The only thing is that they shouldn't pronounce the car "track ready" unless it really is. I would venture a guess that Chevrolet has NEVER produced a Corvette that, from the factory, had brakes that could hold up to a track day. The problem is that there is just too much power to dispose of, and each year they put in more power and the brakes just can't keep up....
Bottom line, if you are going to seriously track a Corvette, brake upgrades are a requirement, so you kinda gotta get over it and accep it as a fact of life.....
It all comes down to the design "mission" cycle... The guys working on it probably thought they got the job done, Hienrocket took it to the ring, did his thing, pronounced it good, and they all went home happy...
Then we slap on a set of DOT slicks, go to a more brake intensive track, and end up with a disaster...
Do they need more cooling, better calipers, and more rotor life, for what we are doing, sure, but for 99% of what the car is going to see, they are probably fine....
The only thing is that they shouldn't pronounce the car "track ready" unless it really is. I would venture a guess that Chevrolet has NEVER produced a Corvette that, from the factory, had brakes that could hold up to a track day. The problem is that there is just too much power to dispose of, and each year they put in more power and the brakes just can't keep up....
Bottom line, if you are going to seriously track a Corvette, brake upgrades are a requirement, so you kinda gotta get over it and accep it as a fact of life.....
Not really sure but other cars like Porsche have better brake systems no? If you want to have the American exotic you need to put brakes on it. Why did they make 198 MPH top end? I doubt more than 1-5% ever see it and then how often? How often do people use their brakes hard? More often than 198 MPH top speed. It is a boasting point to make the brakes the way they do with all the pads and crap. They could of had a simpler & cheaper design that worked better and was easier to service.
12-11-2006, 11:31 AM
#14
Drifting
Originally Posted by ghoffman
Did anyone see this article? What a joke! We now know that the 26 pound left side only rotors with worse than worthless holes are sourced from Brembo, and the "Performance engineer" at GM that approved this kludge braking system is named Tony Rifici. I wish he would call me, I would like to know if he ever has used what he had a hand in. The quote I love is "...we developed the ZO6 brake system to sustain a capable driver running flat-out through a full tank of fuel". That is a great spec, change pads every tank of gas at a track day. They even mention that the multiple pad caliper was so that the pad taper was evened out. That certainly did not happen, this is the worst pad taper I have ever had in any brake. Did Mr. Rifici ever use this trash? Have you ever heard of System Engineering trade studies? Just very sad....
Gary Hoffman
cell 603-682-8073
Gary Hoffman
cell 603-682-8073
Dan
Vetteworks
12-11-2006, 01:30 PM
#16
Le Mans Master
I think Solofast has it right on. But the GM engineers, including Tom Wallace are getting a good dose of their own medicine at the NCM HPDE's. Those guys are changing brake pads every time I go over to their area in the pits. I'm sure they've heard plenty of complaints about it too. I would find it hard to believe that they aren't at least giving it a serious rethink. So now that they are indeed out there on the track actually using these cars, I'm sure we'll see improvements in the future. The NCM DE is probably the best thing to ever happen to the Vette. Only time will tell for sure.
12-11-2006, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by robvuk
The NCM DE is probably the best thing to ever happen to the Vette. Only time will tell for sure.
Lots of changes coming as a result of the engineers going to the NCM DEs.
Moslty small and not publisized, but coming.
12-11-2006, 02:22 PM
#18
Drifting
It's too bad they couldn't have built the 6 piston caliper around a race pad that is cheaper and already available.
Similarly they could have grooved the rotors for the "racy" look for the guys that think they need something other than a flat rotor.
Similarly they could have grooved the rotors for the "racy" look for the guys that think they need something other than a flat rotor.
12-11-2006, 02:36 PM
#19
Melting Slicks
Originally Posted by John Shiels
Not really sure but other cars like Porsche have better brake systems no? If you want to have the American exotic you need to put brakes on it. Why did they make 198 MPH top end? I doubt more than 1-5% ever see it and then how often? How often do people use their brakes hard? More often than 198 MPH top speed. It is a boasting point to make the brakes the way they do with all the pads and crap. They could of had a simpler & cheaper design that worked better and was easier to service.
I don't know if Porsches have better results with their brakes than we do. But remember that the amount of energy you take out is directly related to the amount you put in. If you have a bigger motor, you are going to need bigger brakes. There are very few Porsches that have the power we do, (and none that have the power of a C6z other than the Carrera, and that has carbon brakes) and because of their miserable weight distribution, they are easier on front brakes than we are. I'd take a well balanced car like ours any day over 911 and live with the brake issues..... And yes we can go really fast, but how often do most folks slow down and use their brakes to their limit in a lifetime,,,,, not nearly as hard or as fast as you do on the track in one or two laps. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending them, they really have some work to do, but I was just trying to point out how they probably got to where they are. I'm sure they probably thought they had a pretty good solution, and then we go out and find that what what they gave us doesn't work all that well...
Oh well, back to the old drawing board...
12-11-2006, 03:04 PM
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They shouldn't have tryied reinventing the wheel. They just should have just installed one of the great brake packages that's already out there.