Insurance question(s) for HPDE event organizers (club officers, etc)
12-20-2006, 01:18 PM
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Burning Brakes
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Insurance question(s) for HPDE event organizers (club officers, etc)
I know that there's been discussion on this forum of insurance companies changing terms of coverage regarding damage at HPDE events, from the view point of car owners/drivers. I'd like to get "insurance" feedback from those of you involved in organizing and/or managing HPDE events. A club I belong to is currently evaluating risk exposure if we sponsor (and organize and manage) HPDE events.
First, which insurance company(s) do you buy your own (organization) coverage from? And what are their major requirements/restrictions for how you conduct your event? I'm thinking of stuff like "passengers allowed or not?", overtaking/passing rules (& allowable areas), safety equipment and staff required...and anything else significant.
Second, what effects (if any) do you see on the number of participants turning out for future events as a result of many/most insurance companies rewarding their policies to exclude coverage for any damages or INJURIES that happen "on a track" or "at a racing facility", regardless of whether the event was competition, timed, involved (performance) awards, etc? In full "worry wart" mode, I can see participation dropping to levels where the entry fee would have to be four or five hundred dollars (per day) to cover the costs.
Thanks in advance for all information and suggestions.
First, which insurance company(s) do you buy your own (organization) coverage from? And what are their major requirements/restrictions for how you conduct your event? I'm thinking of stuff like "passengers allowed or not?", overtaking/passing rules (& allowable areas), safety equipment and staff required...and anything else significant.
Second, what effects (if any) do you see on the number of participants turning out for future events as a result of many/most insurance companies rewarding their policies to exclude coverage for any damages or INJURIES that happen "on a track" or "at a racing facility", regardless of whether the event was competition, timed, involved (performance) awards, etc? In full "worry wart" mode, I can see participation dropping to levels where the entry fee would have to be four or five hundred dollars (per day) to cover the costs.
Thanks in advance for all information and suggestions.
Last edited by HPDEfan; 12-20-2006 at 01:19 PM. Reason: grammar correction
12-20-2006, 01:44 PM
#2
Team Owner
Have you talked to the track operators where you want to host the event? They may have recommendations on companies that will insure HPDE events. Some tracks may even offer an insurance package with the rental.
The track may also have very specific rules on what things you can and cannot do at the event (level of tech inspections, passing, how many course workers, medical/fire assistance, etc.) so you need to get with them on their expectations and requirements.
One event that I attend costs $120 per driver and there is a limit of 80 entrants. From what I have been told by the people that put the event on, that includes track rental, support staff, and the insurance. But this particular event may be a special deal between the event coordinators and the specific track so you really need to get the information on costs down before you can decide on things like entry fees.
Don't expect to have an entrant's car insurance cover any damage to their car while particpating at an HPDE. Most insurance companies will simply not cover damages to a car if it's involved in a track accident. The insurance coverage typically provided for these events is a general liability third party "umbrella" coverage that protects the track and the owners/operators, not the entrants or their cars.
The track may also have very specific rules on what things you can and cannot do at the event (level of tech inspections, passing, how many course workers, medical/fire assistance, etc.) so you need to get with them on their expectations and requirements.
One event that I attend costs $120 per driver and there is a limit of 80 entrants. From what I have been told by the people that put the event on, that includes track rental, support staff, and the insurance. But this particular event may be a special deal between the event coordinators and the specific track so you really need to get the information on costs down before you can decide on things like entry fees.
Don't expect to have an entrant's car insurance cover any damage to their car while particpating at an HPDE. Most insurance companies will simply not cover damages to a car if it's involved in a track accident. The insurance coverage typically provided for these events is a general liability third party "umbrella" coverage that protects the track and the owners/operators, not the entrants or their cars.
12-20-2006, 03:42 PM
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NCCC uses K&K Insurance which is the same company a lot of tracks use. The NCCC policy covers any activity defined in the NCCC rule book. It is basically a liability policy that covers the organizers, participants and the facility where the event is being held. To be covered the participant has to sign the waiver. The waiver is a promise between a person who signs the waiver and all others who sign the waiver to not sue anybody who has signed the waiver. NCCC clubs run hundreds of autocrosses each year, a number of high speed autocrosses and some HPDEs. There are some payments for participants who are injured or killed but they are minimal. The last I knew the greatest number of claims on the insurance policy came from car shows. Each member club of NCCC is covered by this insurance which covers all club activities. The general coverage is for $1M but it can be raised to $5M for any event by paying an additional fee. High speed events require additional coverage and the additional fee. In 2006 an NCCC club could insure a high speed event at $5M of liability coverage for under $500. This fee is above and beyond the fee paid to NCCC for being a member club. For a club that is more than a meet and eat club the NCCC insurance coverage is pretty low cost.
As for the impact of regular auto insurance companies restricting coverage of people participating in HPDEs the only thing that might affect participation is the collision coverage on a person's own car. Liability will be covered by the event organizer and bodily injury will be covered by the person's own health insurance (this is true even on the road since hospitals do not recognize car insurance coverage).
Not sure where your cost numbers come from. Most HPDEs I attend already cost $450 to $500 per 2 day event or $260 per day. Tracks probably cost at least $12K per day to run if you have full worker support from them.
Bill
As for the impact of regular auto insurance companies restricting coverage of people participating in HPDEs the only thing that might affect participation is the collision coverage on a person's own car. Liability will be covered by the event organizer and bodily injury will be covered by the person's own health insurance (this is true even on the road since hospitals do not recognize car insurance coverage).
Not sure where your cost numbers come from. Most HPDEs I attend already cost $450 to $500 per 2 day event or $260 per day. Tracks probably cost at least $12K per day to run if you have full worker support from them.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Dearborn; 12-20-2006 at 04:02 PM.
12-20-2006, 05:59 PM
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Here is K and K insuracnes web site
http://www.kandkinsurance.com/
Cost to the clubs / event orgainzers between $900 - $1,000 for a two day event.
This insureance does NOT cover participants cars. Each indiviuals policy may or may not corver their vehical.
HPDEs are covered Open track events may not be.
Catchs:
It may not be a timed event.
Must be an instructural event, classroom and in car instuctors.
and this varries by state and by individual company.
Each club has specific rules. Look at the rules of the clubs you like and the clubs you dont like. Model your rules after the clubs you like.
Look at some PCA and BMW club rules is a very good place to start.
If you have not done many events, may I suggest that you do 10-15 events in the next 24 months to see what really goes on.
There is also the Standard motorsports release that each person signs when they enter the track for the track. Then again at registration for the event.
This release that each participated signs releases any and ALL liabilty of the track or the host orginisation to any and all damagaes and in the event of death, you and you and your heirs agree NOT to sue or any litigation what so ever for any reason.
Motorsports is an inherrent dangorious sport. YOU as the participat take full responsibilty for your and your guests actions.
Second, what effects (if any) do you see on the number of participants turning out for future events as a result of many/most insurance companies rewarding their policies to exclude coverage for any damages or INJURIES that happen "on a track" or "at a racing facility", regardless of whether the event was competition, timed, involved (performance) awards, etc? In full "worry wart" mode, I can see participation dropping to levels where the entry fee would have to be four or five hundred dollars (per day) to cover the costs.
Never happen and if it did any club could not afford the insurance.
When we get potential particpants in 'worry wart mode" we tell them THIS IS NOT FOR THEM. Each participant must FULL responsibilty for THEIR own actions what so ever. If the participant can not do this, stay away.
and Yes most entry fees are already FOUR TO FIVE HUNDRED dollars per weekend, when you use you own car. Some events more and some less.
If you or your club have never orgaized an event like this, then voluntee to CO-orgainze HPDEs with an other club as a learning experience.
Something else you may need to look at. Tracks are NOT cheep to RENT, if you can get the track at all. In most cases forget weekends. Most tracks are rented out up to three years in advance for weekends.
Fees:
There are some tracks that are inexpesive to rent. $2500 for a weekend, and there is a reason. No body wants to run at these tracks and the facilties are not very good.
To the expesive tracks
VIR, Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen, to name three could and do run 40K to 45K for a two day weekend. IF you could get them.
When you sign the contract you must put down a deposit of 25% to 50% non-returnable with the balance due the day prior to your event.
So in most cases signing up participants BEFORE you have a contract at an event is a not a good idea either. It takes some deep pockets to rent tracts and skill to promot events to fill and brake even, let alone make a small amount.
This all being said, our event fill up within 72 hours of opening registration and 5 to 6 months prior to the event.
http://www.kandkinsurance.com/
Cost to the clubs / event orgainzers between $900 - $1,000 for a two day event.
This insureance does NOT cover participants cars. Each indiviuals policy may or may not corver their vehical.
HPDEs are covered Open track events may not be.
Catchs:
It may not be a timed event.
Must be an instructural event, classroom and in car instuctors.
and this varries by state and by individual company.
First, which insurance company(s) do you buy your own (organization) coverage from? And what are their major requirements/restrictions for how you conduct your event? I'm thinking of stuff like "passengers allowed or not?", overtaking/passing rules (& allowable areas), safety equipment and staff required...and anything else significant.
Look at some PCA and BMW club rules is a very good place to start.
If you have not done many events, may I suggest that you do 10-15 events in the next 24 months to see what really goes on.
There is also the Standard motorsports release that each person signs when they enter the track for the track. Then again at registration for the event.
This release that each participated signs releases any and ALL liabilty of the track or the host orginisation to any and all damagaes and in the event of death, you and you and your heirs agree NOT to sue or any litigation what so ever for any reason.
Motorsports is an inherrent dangorious sport. YOU as the participat take full responsibilty for your and your guests actions.
Originally Posted by HPDEfan
Second, what effects (if any) do you see on the number of participants turning out for future events as a result of many/most insurance companies rewarding their policies to exclude coverage for any damages or INJURIES that happen "on a track" or "at a racing facility", regardless of whether the event was competition, timed, involved (performance) awards, etc? In full "worry wart" mode, I can see participation dropping to levels where the entry fee would have to be four or five hundred dollars (per day) to cover the costs.
When we get potential particpants in 'worry wart mode" we tell them THIS IS NOT FOR THEM. Each participant must FULL responsibilty for THEIR own actions what so ever. If the participant can not do this, stay away.
and Yes most entry fees are already FOUR TO FIVE HUNDRED dollars per weekend, when you use you own car. Some events more and some less.
If you or your club have never orgaized an event like this, then voluntee to CO-orgainze HPDEs with an other club as a learning experience.
Something else you may need to look at. Tracks are NOT cheep to RENT, if you can get the track at all. In most cases forget weekends. Most tracks are rented out up to three years in advance for weekends.
Fees:
There are some tracks that are inexpesive to rent. $2500 for a weekend, and there is a reason. No body wants to run at these tracks and the facilties are not very good.
To the expesive tracks
VIR, Mid-Ohio, Watkins Glen, to name three could and do run 40K to 45K for a two day weekend. IF you could get them.
When you sign the contract you must put down a deposit of 25% to 50% non-returnable with the balance due the day prior to your event.
So in most cases signing up participants BEFORE you have a contract at an event is a not a good idea either. It takes some deep pockets to rent tracts and skill to promot events to fill and brake even, let alone make a small amount.
This all being said, our event fill up within 72 hours of opening registration and 5 to 6 months prior to the event.
Last edited by AU N EGL; 12-20-2006 at 06:02 PM.
12-21-2006, 02:29 PM
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Burning Brakes
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First, thanks to all of you for taking the time to put up all the details you have; VERY informative and helpful.
"Fill-in" details--the facility we'll most likely be using (and have been using for years; we're evaluating our needs for continuing to present HPDE's, but I can see I didn't clarify that in my OP) is PIR, in Portland, OR. PIR requires users to purchase insurance--covering PIR & all its reps--and we're looking at adding the club, & individuals who're club reps, as "named insureds" to that policy. We're also researching other sources of coverage that'd be independent of (or in place of) the required policy.
How many of you are familiar with the multiple-fatality crash at a Ferrari Club of America event at CA Speedway last year (summer of 05), and the resulting lawsuits? (a good summary of the issues being raised is included in Sports Car Market magazine, June 2006 issue.) That's the "one big thing" liability potential that's got my attention; the greatest potential problem I see there is that no waiver is bulletproof--"reasonable expectations" (of risks being waived) tests can be applied.
Some details on costs: PIR is a very popular site, with multiple events per day during the summer (for example, an HPDE group from 7 am - 4 pm, bicycle club racing from 4 pm - 8 pm, and "late night drags" from 9 pm to midnight or later...and that's on a week-day). National and regional events take up at least 75% of weekend dates.
Net results--we're limited to one-day events on weekdays (ie, Mon - Thurs), which, while it reduces rental cost, limits turnout. Our break-even point has been rising every year, and I wouldn't be surprized at seeing it hit $7,500 - 8,500 (for a one-day, week-day event) in '07. We've been trying to hold the line on the entry fee at about $125 (early/pre-registration; "day of event" adds $20 - 25), but for a "reasonable expectations" turnout of 45 to 50 drivers, you can see how much it's got to go up.
Oh, approximate numbers for anyone not familiar with what goes into those event costs:
Site rental $ 4500
Insurance 1500
On-site EMT+vehicle 750
on-site tow truck 250
Professional turn-worker crew 1000
Advertising & registration materials;
Club "event" equipment & supplies;
Food, bottled water & "thank you" items 500
"Fill-in" details--the facility we'll most likely be using (and have been using for years; we're evaluating our needs for continuing to present HPDE's, but I can see I didn't clarify that in my OP) is PIR, in Portland, OR. PIR requires users to purchase insurance--covering PIR & all its reps--and we're looking at adding the club, & individuals who're club reps, as "named insureds" to that policy. We're also researching other sources of coverage that'd be independent of (or in place of) the required policy.
How many of you are familiar with the multiple-fatality crash at a Ferrari Club of America event at CA Speedway last year (summer of 05), and the resulting lawsuits? (a good summary of the issues being raised is included in Sports Car Market magazine, June 2006 issue.) That's the "one big thing" liability potential that's got my attention; the greatest potential problem I see there is that no waiver is bulletproof--"reasonable expectations" (of risks being waived) tests can be applied.
Some details on costs: PIR is a very popular site, with multiple events per day during the summer (for example, an HPDE group from 7 am - 4 pm, bicycle club racing from 4 pm - 8 pm, and "late night drags" from 9 pm to midnight or later...and that's on a week-day). National and regional events take up at least 75% of weekend dates.
Net results--we're limited to one-day events on weekdays (ie, Mon - Thurs), which, while it reduces rental cost, limits turnout. Our break-even point has been rising every year, and I wouldn't be surprized at seeing it hit $7,500 - 8,500 (for a one-day, week-day event) in '07. We've been trying to hold the line on the entry fee at about $125 (early/pre-registration; "day of event" adds $20 - 25), but for a "reasonable expectations" turnout of 45 to 50 drivers, you can see how much it's got to go up.
Oh, approximate numbers for anyone not familiar with what goes into those event costs:
Site rental $ 4500
Insurance 1500
On-site EMT+vehicle 750
on-site tow truck 250
Professional turn-worker crew 1000
Advertising & registration materials;
Club "event" equipment & supplies;
Food, bottled water & "thank you" items 500
