Timz06

Throttle induced oversteer, easy to control just countersteer, either lift a bit, or keep the throttle the same.

Oversteer due to turning in early or lifting in a turn, harder to control. Get on the throttle or countersteer.

I agree about not hitting brakes in turns, or when losing it. One thing you can do if you enter a turn too hot is to quickly straighten the wheel and hit the brakes. This can allow you to slow the car a bit and allow you to make the turn with a later apex.

AU N EGL

Roc and I have talked about using and getting a skid pad for students. This may not be possible with 75 to 100 students at a HPDE. and or use a third day for a school. However, adding a third day increases costs for everyone. So the cost / bennefit / time comes into affect.

IMHO to help a student to learn over and understeer properly, in or on a controled envorinemt, takes time. A few minuets on a skid pad wont do it.

Here in the Raleigh NC area we do have two skid pads. One is a wet dry pad on the NC State Troppers training grounds and the other is a dry pad on the City of Raleigh PD training grounds. Both are not easy to rent.

I have been and tought on both skid pads for a Teen Street Survival program hosted by the BMWCCA. http://www.streetsurvival.org/streetsurvival/
Great time. Students 16-18 y dont want to get off the skid pad. They learn alot and it is fun too.

There are some autocross schools that do spend time on skid pads.

The Potomic Audi club spends a few minutes on the skid pad at VIR for the NOVICE, never been on track students.

Roc and I both endorse the Potomic Region Audi Club for additional HPDEs. The do welcome corvettes at their schools. Some times there are more Corvettes, then BMWs, Porsches and Audi's at the Audi event.

Roc's son Rest is soul, help found the Potomic Region Audi club and the HPDE program.

So Roc, meself and a few other ppl ( NCM ) are doing some long range planning for NCM Events.

Edit: I agree with Tim above. When we look at potential circuits for HPDEs we look at run off areas for safty too and why we will most likely not do any rovals or tracks with lots of guard rails, concreat walls close to the track.

yellow01

Red is what it sounds like to me. Sounds like you are getting caught in a loop of overcorrection. Based on above it sounds like you know what to do, you are just doing too much of it to catch it in one movement.

It's a trick to react immediately and instinctively but still do it gently and deliberately. Natural inclination for an immediate reaction is to jerk... you can't do that and get good results.

And when you say "back" off the gas, that only means reduce throttle. If you close throttle, you will get the wagging/overcorrection and/or snap. Then you try to get back in and you go down the oscillation road. The reduction in throttle to reduce a bit of oversteer is really quite small. Counter steer and back of every so slightly. Unless you are lighting up the tires in the turn, a VERY small reduction in throttle is all that's needed and if countersteered and appropriate amount, the car will come into line.

Folks above are hounding you a bit and I don't think that's fair. Knowing what to do, and being good at it are two different things.

Trial and error on the track will teach you but it is far better to know what to do, then go to the track and practice it. Unless you have endless hours of track time, it will take you a few lifetimes and $$$ to learn by trial and error. That's why schools have classroom sessions too.

Seat time is the only practice at anyone's disposal, but it isn't the only way to learn. There is no problem discussing and trying to learn from your chair.

Andi

Janet,

I didn't know you did that-- I'm impressed.

69autoXr

Andi

David,

People like you, me, Lou, SW, etc may find RA's turn 7 the mildest of turns...... but I personally saw a guy do THIS at Road Atlanta turn 7:



...he went just a little past that outside curbing and then the grass REALLY caught his slide.

So, y'all keep this in mind, it's a bit sobering-- be careful. It was nice to see the strength of the stock C-pillar. The rear windshield didn't even crack.

Road Atlanta isn't a good place to practice car control IMHO. It's a dangerous track, with walls and very high speeds. If you've got access to a GOOD school that has a skid car, that's the best... next up, the wet parking lot/etc... and then my suggestion of screwing around sideways in a controlled environment at the road course, but pick a slower track with wide expanses of runoff like somebody else suggested. Not Road Atlanta or Watkins Glen...

Oh, finally.. Autocross is good for learning how to drive smoothly... and if you drive a Miata, might even teach you car control. The problem is, we're on a Corvette forum. These cars are way too fast and autocrosses are too small and tight. By the time you get a little bit sideways and that cone's coming at your freshly zaino'd door, it's all you can do to just slam on the brakes and clutch to avoid the cone. Not to mention the grid marshall that black flags you the second you get a little bit out of shape. Might as well say "I love crepes." Eff that.

Andi

P.S., Road Atlanta, Watkins Glen, Laguna Seca, and TWS are my favorite tracks I've done so far in the US... I wonder why

QUIKAG

Autocross is better than a kick in the nuts, but it won't be much help when you're dealing with unintended rotation at triple digit speeds.

Also, the guy above who said to hit the brakes when oversteering obviously needs to practice a bit more or else he'll end up doing this (watch through the video):
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...48682296639122

davidfarmer

I tend to agree that Autocross does NOT teach the same kind of car control that you need for high speed events. It is still good experience, but not the same.

btw, regarding the smashed car above. This show not only the strengths, but weeknesses. The A-pillars are Aluminum, and the B-pillars are steel (tubular, well designed). I've seen a few b-pillars squashed, but the a-pillars always go.

bobmoore2

The problem is that we're misunderstanding each other.

"Driving schools" teach two kinds of classes. There are classes that teach racing skills, but very few practical driving skills. (Where Janet uses the term 'car control', I use the term 'practical driving skills'.) There also are classes that mainly teach practical driving skills with a little racing skills thrown in. There are a few "Driving Schools" that actually have only racing classes, and a few with only driving classes. Most have both.

If you intend to do any racing (autocrossing, drifting, or track), you should first take a DRIVING (car control) class. It makes no sense to know how to drive so fast that you get into trouble, but then not know how to get out of (or stay out of) trouble. After you have learned and mastered spin correction, threshold braking & acceleration, quick maneuvers for accident avoidance, etc. in a driving class; only then should you think about driving fast enough to get near the limit.

Then after two or three racing events you should think about attending a racing class at a driving school.

Do you agree, Janet?

Janet Curran

Yes, Bob. Our students drive our very powerful and expensive Corvettes that range from 400 to 505 horsepower with a ton of torque. We would not dream of allowing students on the track with our cars until they are properly prepared. We begin with Braking and accident avoidance, then skid car and skid pad exercises. We teach you to balance the car, visual scanning and also heel/toe exercises that help you on the track also. Our students may occasionally have a minor "off", but they never have accidents. They are well prepared to drive the powerful and very well balanced Corvettes. We do NOT teach racing, we teach car control and driving skills that will help you on the track, but these skills will also help you survive your daily highway encounters and are an investment in your future and your life. Never think about taking a racing course until you are properly prepared, just like you would never take a flying lesson without first having taken ground school. Safety should be your first thought whatever you do.

Great discussion here. The CF rocks.

Janet Curran
www.racespringmountain.com
1.877VET4FUN

Bill Dearborn

Car control is something that needs to be learned when you first start driving. For people in the North the first shot they usually have at learning car control is the first snowfall after they get their license (although maybe not this year). Parking lots are good places to practice in the snow and a late night trip to a large parking lot can reap all sorts of benefits. If you can find a place with wide open gravel roads that is a good place to start also. Then you can move up to bare pavement but that usually makes a lot of noise and attracts unwanted attention.

Bill

outnumbered

[QUOTE=bobmoore2;1558402400]

If you intend to do any racing (autocrossing, drifting, or track), you should first take a DRIVING (car control) class. It makes no sense to know how to drive so fast that you get into trouble, but then not know how to get out of (or stay out of) trouble. After you have learned and mastered spin correction, threshold braking & acceleration, quick maneuvers for accident avoidance, etc. in a driving class; only then should you think about driving fast enough to get near the limit.


That is exactly why I am going to Spring Mountain in a couple weeks for level one. I have 7 Hpde's completed. Not to say anything negative about any of the events or people involved but the car control learning is limited. I discovered as speeds increase control decreases.

At Summit Point WV. They have a wet skid pad. It is a must to learn. It helped me in a few situations afterwards. Without the training those situations would have turned out differently.

So I am spending my modification money on me and not the car that I can't drive for what was built to do.

Nice thread and nice feedback.

Janet, I'll see you on the 22nd.

Dan

Race Prepared

Although not mentioned in this thread - you might consider the car's setup. Ride height, shock selection, sway bar rates, & tire type/pressures contribute to the cars behavior when driving on the edge. Auto X can help by allowing you to experiment at lower speeds and then graduate to higher speed conditions.

LG Motorsports

Hi GUys,

Ok, first rule: Anytime you are sliding your car or spinning your wheels you are going to get a slower lap time. So approach the limits of your car from the safe side. Keep the car under you at all times, and approach the car's limits and your limits.

When I was young and stupid, I drove a little bit wild. It is not the fast way around the track.

So if you get in an oversteer situation, FIX THE CAR first. It will not oversteer unless you either make it by improper driver input or it has a mechanical problem.

What mechanical problem you say? Rear end, Shock problems, mis-engineered chassis and suspension setup, Alignment is incorrect etc.

When we set up a car we give it Trailing throttle understeer, and power on neutral or slight push. If you don't have your car handling like that, you could put Mario Andretti in your car and he would look bad. (ok, Michael Schumacher for you young guys)

I am on the plane back from Daytona test so I will be back later.

LG

Andi

Lou, just don't forget that driving fast and wild when you were young and getting accustomed to driving at and past the limit is what made you a good/fast drivier today.

If we teach the next generation to just drive like pu$$ies and keep the car "under them", they will never be fast and they will be scared $h!tless and spin off the track the first time the car gets "out from under them." They need to become comfortable with the limit and with sliding before they cam become truly fast.

Andi

MazdaRob

I worked the one in East Raleigh and thought it was a great training method for young drivers. Especially when they called them on the cell phone and tried to make them talk and slalom at the same time

I still think driving schools and practice are the best training.

bobmoore2

The best value you will ever get from your modification money, is a driving school. Then practice what you were taught, until it becomes automatic. Improve the driver first, until the driver is safely pushing the car to its limits. Then start improving the car, to start increasing the limits of the car.

sleeper02Z06

I tend not to agree with this mindset for one reason, not everyone has the same goal and not everyone learns in the same manner. As a instructor you must look at each person being taught as an INDIVIDUAL, not with the group. You can teach classroom ( something like this thread ) as a slate, the same way to a bunch of people. In car instruction is quite a bit different. I take this "open minded" appraoch to teaching into the car whether I am with a student at an HPDE or when I am teaching a young officer pursuit techniques under stress. If you teach the same WAY with everyone, especially an aggressive do or die teaching slant, you will lose students. Period. Keep in mind you can arrive at the same location taking many different roads.

Joe

Bink

Am I reading this correctly?

- I don't think Schumacher would favor this setup.

Mario probably would.

DANNOV

A skid pad is the best place to learn about the handling characteristics of your car and how your inputs affect the handling. On a skid pad you can go right to the edge of traction and learn how to bring it back. You will also learn how your tires talk to you, i.e. providing valuable hints that you are getting too close to the edge.
Anyone going on the track for the first time should take a few hours or more of skid pad training. I wish all tracks had skid pads where you can setup your car, or test tires, or test yourself, etc. Mark Donahue wrote in his book how he used a skid pad to test cars and experiment with various suspension settings, he was one of the first to go this route.