petefias

What is the best method to catch an oversteer due to too much gas in a turn? I've seen too many times when countersteering in an oversteer situation just snaps the car in the other direction when it hooks up again. Is that caused by too much countersteering, letting up on the gas or both?

Same approch to be used with AH/TC on and off?

AZ FASTEST

Gently off the gas.

Andi

The best approach is not theorize about it on the internet. This is verbal masturbation at best.

Instead, go do a trackday. Actually DRIVE the car. To the limit. Past the limit. With the AH/TC S#!T turned off. Find out how the car slides, and how to control it. It's like when you first learned to ride a bike. It's the best safety-thing you can ever do, and you'll thank me for it. Next time you lose traction or get sideways on the street, it'll just be a casual flick of countersteer and/or a let-up of the throttle, BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, YOU WON'T BE THINKING ABOUT IT, IT'LL BE HARD WIRED INTO YOUR BRAIN EXACTLY HOW MUCH, AND WHEN TO QUIT COUNTERSTEERING SO YOU DON'T DART OFF THE OTHER WAY.

Just don't pull the classic "I'm just going to drive it at 8 tenths and leave the computer nannies on at the track so I don't get in a pickle" which I like to call the Corvette/Zaino Track Day Experience. You'll never learn what that BMX does at the edge till you take the training wheels off.

Andi

2KZ28CAM

Push it to learn how to reign it in. Do so only under controlled, and safe circumstances, and REMEMBER what you have learned. A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.

As MANY other members have said, it takes PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE.

With that being said, from my limited knowledge, it takes a disciplined lift off the gas in concert with judicious steering inputs (combined with a well-timed light touch to the brakes, and light push back on the throttle at the "high-gravity" moments) to pull yourself out of a "Holy Sh*t" moment on the track. <electronic nannies notwithstanding>

YMMV.

Andi

The only time you EVER need to touch the brakes is a last resort when giving up all hope of saving the spin. You've run out of opposite lock, you're spinning towards the wall anyway, and you're saying, F$CK it, I need to scrub off speed before the wall or maybe/hopefully elminate it. In that case, "both feet in", i.e. push the clutch and push the brake all the way.

Otherwise, unless all hope is abandoned, never touch the brake. All it does is upset the chassis more by transferring weight off the rear axle at the most inopportune time.

Andi

2KZ28CAM

Agreed. i was speaking more of the case when your tail is whipping at a medium-speed (serpentine whiplash), and you have enough track to recover. If you can counter the tail-whipping with "steer-lift-brake-throttle-steer" method, and keep a median line on the track, you can recover. Of course, if you deviate from the median line, all bets are off.

If your carrying too much momentum and speed before the event, then the brakes are not worth much. You have to lift, push the clutch, and steer to hold on for dear-life.

NORTY

Punch it!

mousecatcher

actually you generally need to keep on the gas until you have caught the skid.

the most important thing is to look where you WANT to go

it takes a lot of practice

track day is not a good place to practice, go to spring mountain

Andi

...me f$cking around in my old Supra back in the day at Motorsport Ranch.....

http://www.boostaholic.com/supra/med...-MSR-Drift.wmv

That's the best, most responsible way to learn car control.

Me? I learned by f$cking around and powersliding that Supra everywhere on the street... and parking lots..... every time it rained, etc........ But hey, I was 19 and owned the Dallas highway races at the time too. At least I lived through it. And now, thanks to my past, I'm a badass at car control, and I can go race totally smooth and not-sideways or flip a switch in my head and go win a drift contest.

I'm just trying to tell y'all the safer way to do it (track day) where you'll still actually learn something.

Somebody suggested a driving school. Umm... a driving school won't teach you car control. They'll teach you the by the book $H!T and then they'll get scared when you get sideways because (a) they don't know you, and (b) sideways is slow. I've been a student and I've been an instructor, so take it from me. My point is, schools do have their purpose too, but it's a different one... go to a school to learn how to sit in the car, the racing line, how to heel & toe, how to go fast, etc.

Go to a track day and just screw around alone and feel around for the limit if you want to learn car control. That, and maybe a also try a wet parking lot. Preferably one without light poles or curbs or other cars.

Most importantly, make sure ALL the electronic $H!T is turned off. I don't mean that homo competitive mode. I mean the AH/TC OFF mode. The one where you hold the button down for 5 seconds in a c6 or press it once in a c5.

Andi
P.S. Sorry for the tome.

2KZ28CAM

So, we're agreed in the most basic sense that you have to push the limits in order to learn how to bring them back in control? Sweet.

RedZ

Autocross for a couple seasons, best place to put your car to the limit with almost no chance of damage. Or even better if you get a chance to go to a high performance driving school with a skid car do it.

John Shiels

practice in the snow then dirt then the track. Do everything gradually so you don't panick when stuff happens. If you do go to the track don't pick corners with walls and barriers to be your test corners. Also look at the ground to see it is level and grassy so it will slide and not did it a rut and roll. Have money try a school first. Some get and some never get and never improve. Most can make huge strides. Leave the TC & AH on in the beginning. When you feel it kick in you will know your not smooth. No one here will buy you a new car or pay the autobody shop.

Janet Curran

[QUOTE=Andi;1558397272
Somebody suggested a driving school. Umm... a driving school won't teach you car control. They'll teach you the by the book $H!T and then they'll get scared when you get sideways because (a) they don't know you, and (b) sideways is slow. I've been a student and I've been an instructor, so take it from me. My point is, schools do have their purpose too, but it's a different one... go to a school to learn how to sit in the car, the racing line, how to heel & toe, how to go fast, etc.

Andi
P.S. Sorry for the tome.[/QUOTE]

Andi, I guess that you have never been to Spring Mountain. We teach CAR CONTROL. That is why we have a skid car. That is why we spend quite a bit of time on the skid pad before you get free lapping. Car Control is what a good driving school is all about.

Janet Curran
www.racespringmountain.com
1.877VET4FUN

petefias

If I was closer I sure would try your school. I only participated in one HPDE back in the 90's at Watkins Glenn. I did 25+ track events at Pocono and Summit Point.

I can usually bring the car back from an oversteer, but not smoothly without doing "fishtailing" (going back and forth first).

petefias

I should have qualified my question a little more. I have done HPDE at Watkins Glenn, done 25+ track days at Pocono and Summit Point. In an oversteer I intuitively countersteer the car, but many times the car just snaps into an opposite slide, fishtail, and then I countersteer the other direction, then the car hooks again and fishtails. Once I scrub off speed I stop the fishtailing and pull out. Not pretty, smooth or efficient. I never touch the brake during any of these.

So, my goal is to come out of the oversteer without going into another slide.

What I'm gathering is during the oversteer, countersteer and gently back off the gas to stop the slide then straighten the steering wheel and get back on the gas.

I think I'm too late with straigthening the steering wheel that causes me to dart off the other way or should I keep on the gas to prevent unloading the rear?

I'm trying to formulate a mental plan that I can practice during track days.

Most big crashes (on the track or off) happen when the car snaps into the opposite slide following an oversteer condition.

AU N EGL

Skid pad, then wet skid pad, with a highly experience instructor.

Oversteer: Loose, rear slides out first.

Oversteet is very dangerous, especially at high speeds.

For the most part ioversteer s from poor drivers skill by entering corners too fast or too sharp. Slow into the corner, fast out.

427Z0SX

It's not that easy practicing these maneuvers at a HPDE. If you slide around, spin out, go off the track, they will tell you to park it. There's no "approved" time to do this during the track day, other run groups are waiting for your group to get off the track. Maybe a huge parking lot or some ghost town where the cops are not always watching?

davidfarmer

SLOW hands and SLOW feet are the answer to all of your questions, Grasshoppah!

So many folks drive fast cars, and they jam on the gas, jam on the brakes, slam the shifter.... If you learn to drive smoothly, and apply all inputs gracefully, you'll learn that a mild correction and gentle reduction of throttle (NOT lift) will bring things back in line.

**some turns, like turn 7 at Rd Atlanta, allow you to drift out to the outside curbing, which will catch the left rear tire, and save you. This can be very helpfull once you learn it, but most corners don't give you this option.

StArrow68

As Janet and others note a good school will teach car control and it is
much harder than just driving at track days. But also as noted, discussion
will only take you so far and getting in the car is the real solution. Wet
track days at low speeds can be very helpful. Any discussion of getting
on the brakes, even lightly, when you notice throttle oversteer seems
off base to me. Having good throttle control to set the rear end down is
much better. I've run mostly with the AH on but been asked if it
was off when I come back to the paddock since people have seen my
'02 coupe slide about a foot out around mid speed corners but I have to
tell them that it won't intervene if it thinks things are under control, ie,
smooth! It was easier to do when I was getting multiple days per month
on track but now that I'm only going 1 or 2 days per month it's much
harder to do. Looking forward to going back to Reno-Fernley, where I
turn the system off and see if all the practice during the year has paid
off some. Seat Time is the solution.
Randy

robvuk

Unfortunately, snow, dirt and track areas large enough to practice are not easily found. HPDE events normally teach and allow students to learn to go fast but not to recover from snap oversteer. This is the scariest scenario for instructors too, riding with students who are aggressive on their first day. Many tracks have plenty of runoff on the outsides but these snap oversteer problems often send the driver to the inside wall doing thousands in damage, complete total and/or injury. Furthermore, 4 wheels off at any HPDE gets you a black flag, and a trip to the grid. A second black flag usually gets you dismissed from the track for that session or the rest of the day.

So, Tom, what do you think? Do you think it makes sense for us to have a session or a place to practice these maneuvers at the next NCM event?