gkmccready

Repeated from the 944 mailing list:

Wicked Weasel

this is good because people dont realize that although they are putting in harnesses to help them they are potentially really hurting themselves..

BTW - we sell seat covers and foam inserts to change your Z06 seats to sport seats

DANNOV

I don't understand the logic of this change and can't find any explanation. I heard this was coming, but have heard nothing about why. It seems to me that they are doing this to eliminate the problems arising from improperly installed harnesses. Why can't the tech inspectors check out the harness and make a safety evaluation on the spot?
With that said, I must comment that I have never had a PCA tech inspector even look at my harness setup. It could be that the the PCA does not want to be put in a decision making position about non-standard safety equipment. It could also be that the standard OEM setup with belt and airbags is pretty good protection.

jrz1

Can you provide link or more info? All I could find was your forum....

Z06 Whisperer

I know what you mean. I think sometimes the whole inspection process is a bit of a mystery at times. It seems to depend on who you get, the group you're running in, etc. I run with three different PCA clubs and each has it's own style. I have had them look at my harnesses, but am not sure if they are completely familiar with how each type should be installed and such? When I first began running in the top groups, the one club I did the most with (and who knew me as a driver), did strongly recommend more serious harnesses, which I did put in, I guess out of respect to the club as much as any of safety concern.

So, I'll be curious to see exactly what will be required in '08!!

Lancer033

If you can't install the harness right, you're doing more harm than good. I think this is more of an issue for the guys that have 5-point belts with the anti-sub belt hanging uselessly over the front of the seat. 6-point with sport seats and you should be okay, that said, after getting used to a real racing seat, I don't even like the sport seats for around town cruising. You just don't feel as connected to the car.

Bill Dearborn

It may have a lot to do with the PCA member who was killed in 2005 at Watkins Glen. They are not sure what caused the accident (physical problem maybe) but they do know that if he accidentally went off track his harness system probably would have killed him. He had harnesses that went around the seat back instead of through it. When his car hit the guardrail at about a 45 degree angle the air bags went off but his body still twisted to the right and in the process the shoulder harness came off. The car then bounced off the guardrail and across the track to end up T Boning the other guard rail. When the car hit that time the air bags had deflated and his harnesses were no longer on his shoulders. His helmet hit the steering wheel and pushed backwards on his head. When the track workers got to him he was dead. I got this from an expert who was involved studying/understanding what happened and what they could do to keep it from happening again. As it turns out the guy would have been safer with the stock 3 point belts. The expert is a person who is well respected by the BMWCCA and PCA clubs on the east coast and usually attends their HPDEs as an instructor and as a safety advisor. He recently was involved in updating the SCCA GCR.

Bill

Wicked Weasel

Some of the cars I have seen the shoulder harness go through the seat and then straight down behind the seat. That angle will crush your spine so they should be looking at that too.

AU N EGL

Correct. If you read their tech rules, the seats ( both) need to have the proper holes for all the harness belts, shoulder and sub belts.

This is an issue that more and more clubs we come to grips with.

If a harness system is not installed properly the stock belts are much safter.

The best recomondation is to look at the Harness Manufactures, SCCA and FIA mounting instructions for proper installations.

AU N EGL

Thanks Bill for an attempt at an explanation.

I dont think an "H" or Sternum strap is the answer for these type of seats.

Wicked Weasel

I just dont trust the sternum strap to keep the shoulder straps on your shoulder and I dont think it works well with the HANS device.

DANNOV

I use a 5 point belt, but the sub belt goes under the upright seat back (through the space between the seat back and the seat) and then up between my legs. That is not as good as using a sport seat with a hole for the sub belt but IMHO it is better than having the sub belt come over the front of the seat (I always thought that was useless).
I also use my regular seat belt arrangement over my harness. I know a lot of people will disagree with this but that is my choice. I think it adds extra protection, but another real reason I do it this way is that I do not like to have the red light glowing on my dash while I am at speed. When that red light is glowing I find that I sometimes take my eyes off the road to verify that it is my seatbelt light and not something else. I just don't like any red lights showing on the dash, unless it is warning me of something serious.

Wicked Weasel

we only have ones for C5 not C6 at this time....

Lancer033

If you're talking about a C5, you can just unplug the connector under the seat and the light will go off. There are 2 under there, one for the power seat controls the other is for the airbag light. I think it's the smaller one, but if the power seats don't work, you unplugged the wrong one.

-------------------------------------------------

This is a good quick reference from the simpson website for the angles that the belts should be at. As someone mentioned earlier you can end up with a compressed spine if the shoulders are not mounted at the right angles which I have seen frequently in sedans and hatchbacks where they use a long shoulder harness and mount it to the floor.

DANNOV

Interesting diagram from Simpson. I guess I don't understand the standards for the shoulder mount, i.e. "Mount 0 to 10 degrees below shoulder. I asume from the diagram that the 10 degrees, is a minus 10 degrees from horizontal. Just looking at aftermarket harness bars for Corvettes and Porsches, it would appear that most harness installations would fail that requirement, i.e. harness bars seem to be to some degree above the driver's shoulders.
In fact, looking at the installation instructions for my G-Force shoulder harness, they state: "The end attachments of the shoulder harness must also be installed at appropriate angles. The ideal position is anywhere from 5 degrees below and 30 degrees above the drivers shoulder" They also have a diagram that indicates that if the shoulder harness is greater than a -5 degrees, it is in the unacceptable zone and there is danger of spinal compression in an accident situation.
There seems to be some disagreement even among the mfgs about how to mount a harness.

RX7 KLR

A harness should not be used with the factory roll hoop in a car like the Boxster or S2000, the bar is not tall enough. Even if the harness held you in the seat during a roll over all it will do is break you neck as most drivers of those cars are taller than the bar they are strapped to. SCCA already does not allow the use of a harness in an open car for autox or time trials unless you have a bar that meets the specs of the GCR, factory bars must meet the height requirement.

DANNOV

The PCA has no problem with the factory roll hoop on the Boxster for Drivers Ed events. I have driven at Road America and elsewhere with the PCA and there is never a question about the Boxster roll hoop. But for those who are concerned, Brey-Krause has a roll bar extension for the Boxster. It probably won't meet SCCA standards but it is available. Incidently, with me sitting in the car wearing a helmet, I can pass the "broomstick test", which the PCA uses for rollbars. I should also note that the PCA requires Boxsters and 997-997 cabriolets to run only with the top up.

Mikelly

Well that's kinda funny because they've all denied my application when trying to get into HPDEs in my M Roadster. The pop-up bars were cited as the reason every time. That's why the car was sold.

I know that most clubs are starting to tighten up their inspections on safety equipment, and I think it's a good thing. I've seen some downright dangerous setups at the track. Using a 5-6 point harness in a seat that's not designed for it is bad news, and I'm glad to see clubs enforcing this.

Mike

FasterIsBetter

I think most of this was said, but probably worth repeating. When I got my Z, I installed a B-K harness bar with the stock seats. While the harness sat properly on the bar and the lap belt and crotch strap were fine, the shoulder belts coming around the seat back did not sit right on my shoulders. They constantly felt like they were slipping to the sides. Rather than take a risk, I got a set of Carravaggio seats and installed them. The shoulder harnesses now sit up high and align properly, hold me snuggly in place.

If you are going on the track, even in HPDEs, it is best to be safe rather than sorry. I didn't want to be heading toward a wall some day saying to myself "Gee, I really should have bought a seat with proper shoulder holes." I'm having the same thoughts at the moment about a Hans device, and may buy one of those before the racing season starts as well. Life is short as it is. No reason to make it any shorter.

Wicked Weasel

If you are out on the track you should have the HANS. I know the initial sticker shock takes some getting over, but think of all the money you spend on wearable items. I am sure the HANS will outlast many brake pads and tires which we would not skimp on.