recovery after dropping 2 tires off
04-01-2007, 04:49 PM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
recovery after dropping 2 tires off
Hey instructors,
In the past I have heard from you guys that when you drop two tires off, whatever you do, dont jerk the car right back onto the track.
Sound advice... keep the car under control and keep other people coming up from behind from hitting you...
This is easy enough to observe if the car goes off after a small wiggle or something exiting a corner. Keep the wheel straight when it steps off, get it under control with two in the dirt, check for other cars and bring it back on the track smoothly.
No sweat.
Where I am a little confused is on corner exit. Lets say I turned in too early or have too much speed (didnt realize it) and find myself going off of the curbing and into the dirt some while I still have some steering in the wheel. My current habit is to not make any sudden movements when in doubt, so I go off the track while maintaining the pressure on the gas pedal and the angle of the wheel. Last time this happened I was in a miata and doing that launched the car back across the track seemingly without any extra input on the wheel. I dont think the wheel was turned terribly far at the point I went off either.
What do you guys think? Am I yanking it and just not realizing it? Or do I need to significantly reduce the steering wheel angle to prevent this? I have about 20 track days under my belt (if that helps diagnose common intermediate experienced driver screwups).
Thanks!
p.s. I have the sneaking suspicion that this might be a prime example of wanting the wheel dead straight before you go off...
In the past I have heard from you guys that when you drop two tires off, whatever you do, dont jerk the car right back onto the track.
Sound advice... keep the car under control and keep other people coming up from behind from hitting you...
This is easy enough to observe if the car goes off after a small wiggle or something exiting a corner. Keep the wheel straight when it steps off, get it under control with two in the dirt, check for other cars and bring it back on the track smoothly.
No sweat.
Where I am a little confused is on corner exit. Lets say I turned in too early or have too much speed (didnt realize it) and find myself going off of the curbing and into the dirt some while I still have some steering in the wheel. My current habit is to not make any sudden movements when in doubt, so I go off the track while maintaining the pressure on the gas pedal and the angle of the wheel. Last time this happened I was in a miata and doing that launched the car back across the track seemingly without any extra input on the wheel. I dont think the wheel was turned terribly far at the point I went off either.
What do you guys think? Am I yanking it and just not realizing it? Or do I need to significantly reduce the steering wheel angle to prevent this? I have about 20 track days under my belt (if that helps diagnose common intermediate experienced driver screwups).
Thanks!
p.s. I have the sneaking suspicion that this might be a prime example of wanting the wheel dead straight before you go off...
04-01-2007, 05:14 PM
#2
Safety Car
I'd say get the wheel straight until the car is at a speed where it can be controlled in the dirt/grass...of course that assumes no barriers are straight ahead.
Hard to say if you jerked the wheel or what without video, and then I'm sure you could self-diagnose.
Hard to say if you jerked the wheel or what without video, and then I'm sure you could self-diagnose.
04-01-2007, 07:06 PM
#3
Cartoon Character
Member Since: Jun 2006
Location: Can't be more than 114... Arizona
Posts: 1,440
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You went accross the track because your outside rear wheel started to spin due to maintaining your throttle and your car slowed dramatically removing the rear balance. If you straighten the wheel and lift off the throttle just as you go off and even push in the clutch until you get the hang of it, you can slow down and return to the track. This will only work if you go off straight, if you are turning and you hop off the throttle you will potentially spin the car .
Think of standing on a manhole cover that is balanced on a 12" diameter steel ball. Any direction you move will cause the cover to unbalance and touch the ground. Now apply that thought to the physics of your car. You brake and the car tips forward, you accelerate and the car tips back, you turn right and the car tips left,,,etc. When you want to go really quickly through a corner you need to centre the weight shift as much as possible, that is why we have an even pedal while turning and only open the throttle as we unwind the wheel. The act of turning the wheel causes more weight to shift forward to the outside front tire and we throttle to move the weight to the back and get the maximum turn force through the whole car. That is also why when we experience understeer it often makes sense to increase the throttle to remove the weight from the overworked tires. All of this will be second nature with practise and people who are really good at it are very quick indeed. If you race in the rain , like the guys in the east and northwest do, you learn these techniques at low speeds with less potential for harm, but the theory is the same.. keep the manhole cover as balanced as you can...
I will be renting Buttonwillow later in the year for a day and you are welcome to join us if you like. By the way that applies to everybody in driving distance.. We have no more than 25 cars and only two groups - A: I have no idea what to do so passing is restricted to straights with pointing..
B: I know what I am doing so pass wherever you want
Everyone can swap back and forth between the groups at will as long as they adhere to the passing rules. Since we don't do any stupid pointing or fix which side we pass on in 'B' typically someone who is over their head goes back to 'A' fairly quickly. Nothing like being passed out of the blue on the inside in a 100 mph sweeper by a full race GT2 porsche to help you see you're not as good as you thought.....
We have never had an incident that was caused by car contact, although there has been the odd stone chip. Send me a pm if you are interested and I will add you to the mailing list. We have coaches that are pretty good for the beginners, one of them has won almost 600 pro car races...
Think of standing on a manhole cover that is balanced on a 12" diameter steel ball. Any direction you move will cause the cover to unbalance and touch the ground. Now apply that thought to the physics of your car. You brake and the car tips forward, you accelerate and the car tips back, you turn right and the car tips left,,,etc. When you want to go really quickly through a corner you need to centre the weight shift as much as possible, that is why we have an even pedal while turning and only open the throttle as we unwind the wheel. The act of turning the wheel causes more weight to shift forward to the outside front tire and we throttle to move the weight to the back and get the maximum turn force through the whole car. That is also why when we experience understeer it often makes sense to increase the throttle to remove the weight from the overworked tires. All of this will be second nature with practise and people who are really good at it are very quick indeed. If you race in the rain , like the guys in the east and northwest do, you learn these techniques at low speeds with less potential for harm, but the theory is the same.. keep the manhole cover as balanced as you can...
I will be renting Buttonwillow later in the year for a day and you are welcome to join us if you like. By the way that applies to everybody in driving distance.. We have no more than 25 cars and only two groups - A: I have no idea what to do so passing is restricted to straights with pointing..
B: I know what I am doing so pass wherever you want
Everyone can swap back and forth between the groups at will as long as they adhere to the passing rules. Since we don't do any stupid pointing or fix which side we pass on in 'B' typically someone who is over their head goes back to 'A' fairly quickly. Nothing like being passed out of the blue on the inside in a 100 mph sweeper by a full race GT2 porsche to help you see you're not as good as you thought.....
We have never had an incident that was caused by car contact, although there has been the odd stone chip. Send me a pm if you are interested and I will add you to the mailing list. We have coaches that are pretty good for the beginners, one of them has won almost 600 pro car races...
Last edited by Tintin; 04-01-2007 at 07:49 PM.
04-01-2007, 10:24 PM
#4
Advanced
Member Since: Apr 2001
Location: Norcross GA
Posts: 81
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
For two wheels off remember CPR.
1) Correct - a small correction to keep the car balanced with two wheels on the track i.e. at track out this would mean opening the wheel slightly. If this can't be accomplished with a small correction you would need to drive all four off.
2) Pause - let the car settle after your correction and gradually lose speed. No large brake or steering inputs.
3) Recover - Ease the car back on the track once you have scrubbed off most of your speed. You will be surprised how slow you can be going and still spin a car with unequal traction of two wheels off.
1) Correct - a small correction to keep the car balanced with two wheels on the track i.e. at track out this would mean opening the wheel slightly. If this can't be accomplished with a small correction you would need to drive all four off.
2) Pause - let the car settle after your correction and gradually lose speed. No large brake or steering inputs.
3) Recover - Ease the car back on the track once you have scrubbed off most of your speed. You will be surprised how slow you can be going and still spin a car with unequal traction of two wheels off.
04-01-2007, 11:09 PM
#5
Burning Brakes
For two wheels off remember CPR.
1) Correct - a small correction to keep the car balanced with two wheels on the track i.e. at track out this would mean opening the wheel slightly. If this can't be accomplished with a small correction you would need to drive all four off.
2) Pause - let the car settle after your correction and gradually lose speed. No large brake or steering inputs.
3) Recover - Ease the car back on the track once you have scrubbed off most of your speed. You will be surprised how slow you can be going and still spin a car with unequal traction of two wheels off.
1) Correct - a small correction to keep the car balanced with two wheels on the track i.e. at track out this would mean opening the wheel slightly. If this can't be accomplished with a small correction you would need to drive all four off.
2) Pause - let the car settle after your correction and gradually lose speed. No large brake or steering inputs.
3) Recover - Ease the car back on the track once you have scrubbed off most of your speed. You will be surprised how slow you can be going and still spin a car with unequal traction of two wheels off.
04-02-2007, 01:31 AM
#6
Tech Contributor
Member Since: Oct 1999
Location: Charlotte, NC (formerly Endicott, NY)
Posts: 40,096
Received 8,930 Likes
on
5,334 Posts
One thing that can affect you is the surface your off track wheels are running over. If it is rough the wheels will bounce some and if you are slowing just a little from lifting or braking the better bite of the on track wheel/wheels can cause your car to rotate toward the track. Getting the clutch in is the best way to control this movement.
Bill
Bill