Running a fixed-back race seat w/ harnesses in a C5 w/ only a harnessbar. Safe?
06-06-2007, 03:56 PM
#1
Team Owner
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Running a fixed-back race seat w/ harnesses in a C5 w/ only a harnessbar. Safe?
Curious what the consensus here is on runnign a fixe seat and harnesses w/o a proper roll bar or cage.
I have an Ultrashield Pro Roadrace seat mounted on Hardbar mounts w/ g-force 6-point camlock belts.
I'm running a Brey-Krause harnessbar, have been for a few years now. Down the road when it becomes a dedicated track car I'll most likely send the car to Phoenix for a full cage and T1 suspension conversion.
Should I consider a good welded in 4-point bar in the meantime?
I have an Ultrashield Pro Roadrace seat mounted on Hardbar mounts w/ g-force 6-point camlock belts.
I'm running a Brey-Krause harnessbar, have been for a few years now. Down the road when it becomes a dedicated track car I'll most likely send the car to Phoenix for a full cage and T1 suspension conversion.
Should I consider a good welded in 4-point bar in the meantime?
06-06-2007, 05:39 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
Only you can make the right decision.
Steve
06-06-2007, 06:18 PM
#5
Drifting
I'd get a rollbar only if the front tubes extend all the way down behind the seat and tie into the frame. I don't think bars that use the thin metal bulkhead behind the seat would be strong enough and might even pose some danger of pucturing the fuel tank in a rollover. Getting the back half of a cage could be one way to go adding the front bars later if desired.
06-06-2007, 07:07 PM
#7
Melting Slicks
06-06-2007, 07:13 PM
#8
Former Vendor
I'd get a rollbar only if the front tubes extend all the way down behind the seat and tie into the frame. I don't think bars that use the thin metal bulkhead behind the seat would be strong enough and might even pose some danger of pucturing the fuel tank in a rollover. Getting the back half of a cage could be one way to go adding the front bars later if desired.
Randy
06-06-2007, 09:03 PM
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I think you will be fine with a harness bar. The C5 roof halo and B pillars are very strong and have to pass government rollover tests which is something none of the cages or bars have to do. The big problem in any rollover isn't the halo bar collapsing its the windshield. The few pictures I have seen of C5 rollovers seem to provide some anecodatal evidence in that regard since they show the front of the roof crushed down not the back. Only a properly designed and installed cage will prevent that.
Bill
Bill
06-06-2007, 09:24 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
This is one of those debates that becomes a slippery slope between leave it purely stock to convert it to a dedicated track car. Anything in between is something you make a decision on your personal safety and level of risk. I've been going round and round on this for a year now.
I run stock on the street. Before race weekend I throw in my race seat and attach my 6 point harness to my harness bar setup. You don't have rollover protection. But you stay planted in your seat and should have better control of your car since you aren't using the steering wheel, door and console as pry bars to hang on to. So my simple argument is you have better safety because of increased control. I'm sure you can shoot holes in that theory.
Some clubs insist to do Time Trials that you have a roll bar installed that meets the SCCA GCR spec. So in some cases you do it to meet a requirement. The club I want to do TT with it is mandated. They don't even like harness bars at all but let it slide for HPDE only.
If you install a roll bar in a street driven car then you do risk head injury in an accident. Even with SFI padding on the strike areas of the bars your head won't do so well without a helmet on. Another issue if you have an accident on the street. Your insurance company is not going to take kindly to seeing this if you have to file a claim. You might get dropped. If the claims adjuster knows what it is and what it is for they'll figure your car is setup for track.
Roll bars for Corvettes are not all roll bars. The ones that attach to the waterfall area will fold down in a roll over. You barely have an inch or two of head room. You can't afford to have the bar drop a couple of inches. There aren't that many I've seen that I would trust to actually work. And a number of vendors offer them as "chassis stiffener" or some other description. That allows them to take no responsibility for you assuming in a roll over that you have any protection at all. It becomes an over-sized harness bar and is more dangerous than good.
The same type arguments come up for why you do not have a Hans device. Since the likelihood of a frontal impact is greater in a Vette than a roll over. Seems the Hans device might be a better choice for the same money as a roll bar. A side impact is possibly higher odds than a roll over. So if you do a roll bar then why not get the removable NASCAR door bars to give a bit more impact protection.
I'm not going to full on dedicated track car that requires a truck/trailer to haul it to the track. I want to do 6-10 DE's a year.
I'm not saying my ideas are right and I most certainly don't expect people to agree with me. That is the choices I make and I accept the risks.
I run stock on the street. Before race weekend I throw in my race seat and attach my 6 point harness to my harness bar setup. You don't have rollover protection. But you stay planted in your seat and should have better control of your car since you aren't using the steering wheel, door and console as pry bars to hang on to. So my simple argument is you have better safety because of increased control. I'm sure you can shoot holes in that theory.
Some clubs insist to do Time Trials that you have a roll bar installed that meets the SCCA GCR spec. So in some cases you do it to meet a requirement. The club I want to do TT with it is mandated. They don't even like harness bars at all but let it slide for HPDE only.
If you install a roll bar in a street driven car then you do risk head injury in an accident. Even with SFI padding on the strike areas of the bars your head won't do so well without a helmet on. Another issue if you have an accident on the street. Your insurance company is not going to take kindly to seeing this if you have to file a claim. You might get dropped. If the claims adjuster knows what it is and what it is for they'll figure your car is setup for track.
Roll bars for Corvettes are not all roll bars. The ones that attach to the waterfall area will fold down in a roll over. You barely have an inch or two of head room. You can't afford to have the bar drop a couple of inches. There aren't that many I've seen that I would trust to actually work. And a number of vendors offer them as "chassis stiffener" or some other description. That allows them to take no responsibility for you assuming in a roll over that you have any protection at all. It becomes an over-sized harness bar and is more dangerous than good.
The same type arguments come up for why you do not have a Hans device. Since the likelihood of a frontal impact is greater in a Vette than a roll over. Seems the Hans device might be a better choice for the same money as a roll bar. A side impact is possibly higher odds than a roll over. So if you do a roll bar then why not get the removable NASCAR door bars to give a bit more impact protection.
I'm not going to full on dedicated track car that requires a truck/trailer to haul it to the track. I want to do 6-10 DE's a year.
I'm not saying my ideas are right and I most certainly don't expect people to agree with me. That is the choices I make and I accept the risks.
06-06-2007, 09:54 PM
#11
Former Vendor
This is one of those debates that becomes a slippery slope between leave it purely stock to convert it to a dedicated track car. Anything in between is something you make a decision on your personal safety and level of risk. I've been going round and round on this for a year now.
I run stock on the street. Before race weekend I throw in my race seat and attach my 6 point harness to my harness bar setup. You don't have rollover protection. But you stay planted in your seat and should have better control of your car since you aren't using the steering wheel, door and console as pry bars to hang on to. So my simple argument is you have better safety because of increased control. I'm sure you can shoot holes in that theory.
Some clubs insist to do Time Trials that you have a roll bar installed that meets the SCCA GCR spec. So in some cases you do it to meet a requirement. The club I want to do TT with it is mandated. They don't even like harness bars at all but let it slide for HPDE only.
If you install a roll bar in a street driven car then you do risk head injury in an accident. Even with SFI padding on the strike areas of the bars your head won't do so well without a helmet on. Another issue if you have an accident on the street. Your insurance company is not going to take kindly to seeing this if you have to file a claim. You might get dropped. If the claims adjuster knows what it is and what it is for they'll figure your car is setup for track.
Roll bars for Corvettes are not all roll bars. The ones that attach to the waterfall area will fold down in a roll over. You barely have an inch or two of head room. You can't afford to have the bar drop a couple of inches. There aren't that many I've seen that I would trust to actually work. And a number of vendors offer them as "chassis stiffener" or some other description. That allows them to take no responsibility for you assuming in a roll over that you have any protection at all. It becomes an over-sized harness bar and is more dangerous than good.
The same type arguments come up for why you do not have a Hans device. Since the likelihood of a frontal impact is greater in a Vette than a roll over. Seems the Hans device might be a better choice for the same money as a roll bar. A side impact is possibly higher odds than a roll over. So if you do a roll bar then why not get the removable NASCAR door bars to give a bit more impact protection.
I'm not going to full on dedicated track car that requires a truck/trailer to haul it to the track. I want to do 6-10 DE's a year.
I'm not saying my ideas are right and I most certainly don't expect people to agree with me. That is the choices I make and I accept the risks.
I run stock on the street. Before race weekend I throw in my race seat and attach my 6 point harness to my harness bar setup. You don't have rollover protection. But you stay planted in your seat and should have better control of your car since you aren't using the steering wheel, door and console as pry bars to hang on to. So my simple argument is you have better safety because of increased control. I'm sure you can shoot holes in that theory.
Some clubs insist to do Time Trials that you have a roll bar installed that meets the SCCA GCR spec. So in some cases you do it to meet a requirement. The club I want to do TT with it is mandated. They don't even like harness bars at all but let it slide for HPDE only.
If you install a roll bar in a street driven car then you do risk head injury in an accident. Even with SFI padding on the strike areas of the bars your head won't do so well without a helmet on. Another issue if you have an accident on the street. Your insurance company is not going to take kindly to seeing this if you have to file a claim. You might get dropped. If the claims adjuster knows what it is and what it is for they'll figure your car is setup for track.
Roll bars for Corvettes are not all roll bars. The ones that attach to the waterfall area will fold down in a roll over. You barely have an inch or two of head room. You can't afford to have the bar drop a couple of inches. There aren't that many I've seen that I would trust to actually work. And a number of vendors offer them as "chassis stiffener" or some other description. That allows them to take no responsibility for you assuming in a roll over that you have any protection at all. It becomes an over-sized harness bar and is more dangerous than good.
The same type arguments come up for why you do not have a Hans device. Since the likelihood of a frontal impact is greater in a Vette than a roll over. Seems the Hans device might be a better choice for the same money as a roll bar. A side impact is possibly higher odds than a roll over. So if you do a roll bar then why not get the removable NASCAR door bars to give a bit more impact protection.
I'm not going to full on dedicated track car that requires a truck/trailer to haul it to the track. I want to do 6-10 DE's a year.
I'm not saying my ideas are right and I most certainly don't expect people to agree with me. That is the choices I make and I accept the risks.
I agree with you on 95 percent of your post. It is a very slippery slope with track-street cars. Our chassis stiffener bar is just what it is. There is a number of reasons why the name is the Chassis stiffener. There isn't a insurance company in the world that wouldn't charge us big cash to insure a "Roll Bar". The other reason I have guys doing 180 mph+ with their street-track cars all over the world. Our chassis bar will not save your life in the event of the big one. Will it help, maybe but not enough to call or name it a "roll bar". Have you seen a C5 bare chassis before? These cars are stout in the locations that we mount the chassis bar to.
To make a "roll bar" is a very hard task not left up to the weekend wrench. There is a ton of cutting, welding and bars everywhere. The first step is to cut the panel behide the seats. Find the chassis and go from there.
PS Randy
Drive fast, don't take chances, SIT LOW, brake right before you see god.
06-07-2007, 06:38 AM
#13
Team Owner
I think you will be fine with a harness bar. The C5 roof halo and B pillars are very strong and have to pass government rollover tests which is something none of the cages or bars have to do. The big problem in any rollover isn't the halo bar collapsing its the windshield. The few pictures I have seen of C5 rollovers seem to provide some anecodatal evidence in that regard since they show the front of the roof crushed down not the back. Only a properly designed and installed cage will prevent that.
Bill
Bill
06-07-2007, 08:12 AM
#14
Le Mans Master
mountainbiker provided the photo above and others in a thread about
the incident 2005-11-13: Big Corvette wreck. God saves him.
.
06-07-2007, 02:41 PM
#17
Melting Slicks
I agree with you on 95 percent of your post. It is a very slippery slope with track-street cars. Our chassis stiffener bar is just what it is. There is a number of reasons why the name is the Chassis stiffener. There isn't a insurance company in the world that wouldn't charge us big cash to insure a "Roll Bar". The other reason I have guys doing 180 mph+ with their street-track cars all over the world. Our chassis bar will not save your life in the event of the big one. Will it help, maybe but not enough to call or name it a "roll bar". Have you seen a C5 bare chassis before? These cars are stout in the locations that we mount the chassis bar to.
To make a "roll bar" is a very hard task not left up to the weekend wrench. There is a ton of cutting, welding and bars everywhere. The first step is to cut the panel behide the seats. Find the chassis and go from there.
PS Randy
Drive fast, don't take chances, SIT LOW, brake right before you see god.
To make a "roll bar" is a very hard task not left up to the weekend wrench. There is a ton of cutting, welding and bars everywhere. The first step is to cut the panel behide the seats. Find the chassis and go from there.
PS Randy
Drive fast, don't take chances, SIT LOW, brake right before you see god.
Just so there is no confusion. It wasn't a personal dig on you and your bar. There are several that are sold more as a harness bar or chassis stiffener, but like they are roll bars. Most of those shops, like you, state that they are not a roll bar. Most of you can't or don't want the liability. I can understand that. Some of them lead the person to believe that they are a roll bar or will provide roll protection. I've seen a few installed on C4 and C5s. Most are poor fit, even the ones installed in the solid locations. They make the rear view mirror useless, or won't pass SCCA GCR because of missing diagonal bars, or have the harness bar at the wrong height using a poor angle for the harness. I wouldn't argue that in a roll yours does nothing. I just don't see the point of installing one of those that look like a roll bar unless they really are.
I've got the Naked Vette pictures that show the car without the shell. They are solid. There are places where you can properly mount a roll bar. If you say yours are mounted to that place I'll take your word on that. If I do one it will be one that is guaranteed to pass SCCA in all respects so that I have some confidence that it will help save me in roll over. I have someone local who does custom cages/bars and is highly respected. I'm trying to talk him into doing a custom 4 point for me that is welded in but the inside is bolted and can be mostly removed for street use. That fleeting attempt at making a street/track car...
Graham
06-07-2007, 09:21 PM
#18
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The fact that a test is 30+ years old doesn't mean it isn't any good anymore.
Bill
06-07-2007, 09:23 PM
#19
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As for proper installation of a rollbar I received the following rollbar info from a GM strutural engineer back in November of 2001:
As with any rollbar installation, the attachment points are critical. The loads must be transmitted down to the main rail through significant structure. The lock pillar is significant as it carries the roof bow. However the cross car beam is not load bearing in the direction that an additional rollbar would apply loads. What we usually do is weld a gussetted plate on top of the beam and to the lock pillar for the main roll hoop to weld to. This will transfer loads from the rollbar to the lock pillar to the frame rail.
Bill
As with any rollbar installation, the attachment points are critical. The loads must be transmitted down to the main rail through significant structure. The lock pillar is significant as it carries the roof bow. However the cross car beam is not load bearing in the direction that an additional rollbar would apply loads. What we usually do is weld a gussetted plate on top of the beam and to the lock pillar for the main roll hoop to weld to. This will transfer loads from the rollbar to the lock pillar to the frame rail.
Bill
06-07-2007, 09:40 PM
#20
Former Vendor
Randy,
Just so there is no confusion. It wasn't a personal dig on you and your bar. There are several that are sold more as a harness bar or chassis stiffener, but like they are roll bars. Most of those shops, like you, state that they are not a roll bar. Most of you can't or don't want the liability. I can understand that. Some of them lead the person to believe that they are a roll bar or will provide roll protection. I've seen a few installed on C4 and C5s. Most are poor fit, even the ones installed in the solid locations. They make the rear view mirror useless, or won't pass SCCA GCR because of missing diagonal bars, or have the harness bar at the wrong height using a poor angle for the harness. I wouldn't argue that in a roll yours does nothing. I just don't see the point of installing one of those that look like a roll bar unless they really are.
I've got the Naked Vette pictures that show the car without the shell. They are solid. There are places where you can properly mount a roll bar. If you say yours are mounted to that place I'll take your word on that. If I do one it will be one that is guaranteed to pass SCCA in all respects so that I have some confidence that it will help save me in roll over. I have someone local who does custom cages/bars and is highly respected. I'm trying to talk him into doing a custom 4 point for me that is welded in but the inside is bolted and can be mostly removed for street use. That fleeting attempt at making a street/track car...
Graham
Just so there is no confusion. It wasn't a personal dig on you and your bar. There are several that are sold more as a harness bar or chassis stiffener, but like they are roll bars. Most of those shops, like you, state that they are not a roll bar. Most of you can't or don't want the liability. I can understand that. Some of them lead the person to believe that they are a roll bar or will provide roll protection. I've seen a few installed on C4 and C5s. Most are poor fit, even the ones installed in the solid locations. They make the rear view mirror useless, or won't pass SCCA GCR because of missing diagonal bars, or have the harness bar at the wrong height using a poor angle for the harness. I wouldn't argue that in a roll yours does nothing. I just don't see the point of installing one of those that look like a roll bar unless they really are.
I've got the Naked Vette pictures that show the car without the shell. They are solid. There are places where you can properly mount a roll bar. If you say yours are mounted to that place I'll take your word on that. If I do one it will be one that is guaranteed to pass SCCA in all respects so that I have some confidence that it will help save me in roll over. I have someone local who does custom cages/bars and is highly respected. I'm trying to talk him into doing a custom 4 point for me that is welded in but the inside is bolted and can be mostly removed for street use. That fleeting attempt at making a street/track car...
Graham
Graham,
I only have hard feelings with about 3 people in my life. I assure you are not one of them!!!
Randy
