NASA National TTS / ST2 Update
09-17-2007, 10:08 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
NASA National TTS / ST2 Update
First off Congrats to everyone for a great show this past weekend.
I was a tech inspector for the Time Trial groups and I just wanted to tell everyone what a great group of guys we have from the Corvette community. (I think we set a record for the most Zo6's dyno'd in 2 days!) A lot of the cars were very close to the maximum allowed but none were over the limit and all of the drivers showed up w/ a smile on their faces. Much bigger smiles of course once they saw they passed.
Anyway, this is a cut and paste from the NASA TT forum that was posted by the driver of the Audi in TTS / ST2.
"Guys, there were a couple controversial things that came up during the week regarding my car. The first was the fact that my OBDII port was not sealed during the first two days of competition, that issue was solved which resulted in my forfeiture of Thursday and Friday's times.
The second issue was one of compliance to the weight:power ratio which was noted by fellow competitors in both the Time Trial and Super Touring classes; one ST competitor filed a protest. After Greg and Joe (ST race director) reviewed the GPS data Saturday night, they determined my car was accelerating faster than my claimed power. The result was to continue with the ST race as scheduled and then to seal the car for dyno later that evening. I was very confident my car would pass the compliance test on the dyno since we had dyno tested the car on a similar dyno just two weeks before. On Sunday the ST protest was officially removed and there was no need continue with the dyno plan, however, Greg and I were of the opinion that a dyno was in the best interests of my competitors and NASA. This morning we drove to the dyno and my car failed to meet the weight:power requirement for TTS/ST2...
So I feel an appology is owed to my competitors in TTS and ST2. I want those guys to know that up until the car spun the rollers this morning I was 110% sure it was in compliance (otherwise, I think I would have been a little less determined to make the tow out of my way, cancel my plane tickets and ultimately let a championship slip through my fingers). I also want you all to know that I took extra precautions to ensure that the dyno reading was above board today, but unfortunately the numbers didn't fall in my favor.
Officially, my times in Saturday's second session are DQ'd, meaning Mr. Moser is your TTS Champ! Congrats to him and the others on the podium. In regards to ST2, since the protest was removed and I wasn't required to dyno, I will DQ myself. That means Tony Buffomonte is the 2007 ST2 Champ, congrats to him, he drove terrific all week. Also, Robb Holland in the K-Pax SRT4 is the runner up, it was great having him and the 3R/K-Pax crew there - what a way to spice up Nationals.
Also, I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to meet or hang out with many of you, I was tied up all week with my main focus, my American Iron car which chunked multiple engines and didn't make the race - on the bright side we found the issue before more GM hardware was turned to scrap."
_________________
-Patrick Lindsey-
'01 Audi S4
*updated sig*
#117 Spec Mustang (AI)
,
Matt C.
I was a tech inspector for the Time Trial groups and I just wanted to tell everyone what a great group of guys we have from the Corvette community. (I think we set a record for the most Zo6's dyno'd in 2 days!) A lot of the cars were very close to the maximum allowed but none were over the limit and all of the drivers showed up w/ a smile on their faces. Much bigger smiles of course once they saw they passed. Anyway, this is a cut and paste from the NASA TT forum that was posted by the driver of the Audi in TTS / ST2.
"Guys, there were a couple controversial things that came up during the week regarding my car. The first was the fact that my OBDII port was not sealed during the first two days of competition, that issue was solved which resulted in my forfeiture of Thursday and Friday's times.
The second issue was one of compliance to the weight:power ratio which was noted by fellow competitors in both the Time Trial and Super Touring classes; one ST competitor filed a protest. After Greg and Joe (ST race director) reviewed the GPS data Saturday night, they determined my car was accelerating faster than my claimed power. The result was to continue with the ST race as scheduled and then to seal the car for dyno later that evening. I was very confident my car would pass the compliance test on the dyno since we had dyno tested the car on a similar dyno just two weeks before. On Sunday the ST protest was officially removed and there was no need continue with the dyno plan, however, Greg and I were of the opinion that a dyno was in the best interests of my competitors and NASA. This morning we drove to the dyno and my car failed to meet the weight:power requirement for TTS/ST2...
So I feel an appology is owed to my competitors in TTS and ST2. I want those guys to know that up until the car spun the rollers this morning I was 110% sure it was in compliance (otherwise, I think I would have been a little less determined to make the tow out of my way, cancel my plane tickets and ultimately let a championship slip through my fingers). I also want you all to know that I took extra precautions to ensure that the dyno reading was above board today, but unfortunately the numbers didn't fall in my favor.
Officially, my times in Saturday's second session are DQ'd, meaning Mr. Moser is your TTS Champ! Congrats to him and the others on the podium. In regards to ST2, since the protest was removed and I wasn't required to dyno, I will DQ myself. That means Tony Buffomonte is the 2007 ST2 Champ, congrats to him, he drove terrific all week. Also, Robb Holland in the K-Pax SRT4 is the runner up, it was great having him and the 3R/K-Pax crew there - what a way to spice up Nationals.
Also, I'm sorry I didn't get a chance to meet or hang out with many of you, I was tied up all week with my main focus, my American Iron car which chunked multiple engines and didn't make the race - on the bright side we found the issue before more GM hardware was turned to scrap."
_________________
-Patrick Lindsey-
'01 Audi S4
*updated sig*
#117 Spec Mustang (AI)
,Matt C.
09-17-2007, 10:24 PM
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Big of him, and congrats to Jeff who must have caught a good draft to get that time, and to Jody and Tony B in the FF.
Nobody who was there should be all that surprised.
Nobody who was there should be all that surprised.
09-17-2007, 10:28 PM
#3
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Last edited by Bink; 09-17-2007 at 10:37 PM.
09-17-2007, 10:38 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
09-17-2007, 10:43 PM
#5
Safety Car
Hey, you did great!!!
First time I saw the Audi I thought " What the heck is that??".
That thing could scoot. I'd like to know what it dynoed and the engine specs.
09-17-2007, 10:56 PM
#6
Safety Car
Nasa, should make sure they do not permit cheating at any level, and they should actually listen when competitors complain, rather than just laughing it off, which is what happened in my case.
09-17-2007, 11:15 PM
#7
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
09-17-2007, 11:31 PM
#8
Team Owner
Some of the issue is that the rules need to be clearly written to identify the loopholes. The Audi had a lot of potential loop holes, including the ability to have a remote controllable boost mapping system through the factory electronics. Until it is written out of any TT class rules-- expect there to be more issues.
My fix? Put all of the turbo cars in their own classes. Let them blow as much boost as they like until they instaplode.
It's interesting that Patrick states that the GPS data verified that his speeds and segment times were indicative of a car that exceeded it's weight to power ratio.
There were TEN PEOPLE standing around Saturday afternoon (all Vette guys of course and a few select Evo guys
) when GREENBAUM was DEFENDING the Audi performance on the track. This is almost an exact quote from Greenbaum:
"We spent 3 HOURS pouring over the GPS data last night and it concluded that Patrick was pulling more g's and taking the turns much more aggressively than the other cars. He is a really good driver. He's driving the car better than the other people in his class but within the benchmarked comparison data"
Well, Mr. Greenbaum, you defended the data, then the protested entrant says that your team says that the Audi far exceeded it's weight to power ratio as evidenced from the gps data. Which is it?
Here's the quote from Patrick's dq statement: "After Greg and Joe (ST race director) reviewed the GPS data Saturday night, they determined my car was accelerating faster than my claimed power"
This really gets the hair up on the back of my neck and for a good reason. You all know who you are and you all heard the same thing I heard.
Do you think it's coincidence that Greenbaum and Lindsey (Audi S4) are from the same NASA region? Conflict of interest?
My fix? Put all of the turbo cars in their own classes. Let them blow as much boost as they like until they instaplode.
It's interesting that Patrick states that the GPS data verified that his speeds and segment times were indicative of a car that exceeded it's weight to power ratio.
There were TEN PEOPLE standing around Saturday afternoon (all Vette guys of course and a few select Evo guys
) when GREENBAUM was DEFENDING the Audi performance on the track. This is almost an exact quote from Greenbaum:"We spent 3 HOURS pouring over the GPS data last night and it concluded that Patrick was pulling more g's and taking the turns much more aggressively than the other cars. He is a really good driver. He's driving the car better than the other people in his class but within the benchmarked comparison data"
Well, Mr. Greenbaum, you defended the data, then the protested entrant says that your team says that the Audi far exceeded it's weight to power ratio as evidenced from the gps data. Which is it?
Here's the quote from Patrick's dq statement: "After Greg and Joe (ST race director) reviewed the GPS data Saturday night, they determined my car was accelerating faster than my claimed power"
This really gets the hair up on the back of my neck and for a good reason. You all know who you are and you all heard the same thing I heard.
Do you think it's coincidence that Greenbaum and Lindsey (Audi S4) are from the same NASA region? Conflict of interest?
09-18-2007, 12:13 AM
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Patrick may be a nice guy. He seemed pleasant enough when I spoke to him, but I don't believe for a second he was not completely aware his car was illegal, and that's f*cked up, because he wasn't even close.
There is only one way to police the Turbo cars, FWD, RWD or AWD. They need a boost tattle tale. Run off the boost line in the engine compartment that is sealed and records boost levels that match the boost on a submitted dyno. There could still be some minor manipulation but Patrick was supposed to be at 8.7 and I bet he was more like 6.1 from how he ran with Danny in the straights where Dan out broke and had more corner exit speed.
But regardless all is right now. And the rightful people have the titles.
There is only one way to police the Turbo cars, FWD, RWD or AWD. They need a boost tattle tale. Run off the boost line in the engine compartment that is sealed and records boost levels that match the boost on a submitted dyno. There could still be some minor manipulation but Patrick was supposed to be at 8.7 and I bet he was more like 6.1 from how he ran with Danny in the straights where Dan out broke and had more corner exit speed.
But regardless all is right now. And the rightful people have the titles.
09-18-2007, 05:42 AM
#10
Safety Car
The car wasn't danced on by the Boost Fairy in the middle of the night.
Any Adult that cheats is a liar (deception) and a thief (fraud) - by definition.
Any Adult that cheats is a liar (deception) and a thief (fraud) - by definition.
09-18-2007, 07:32 AM
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Isn't kind of ironic that NASA started as ppl wanted a change from the SCCA, Less rules, more racing. However, as NASA grows by leaps and bounds, more rules are needed, especially on the technical side of cars, and safety issues.
and there is no such thing as cheating, just Differences of Rule Interpretation.
and there is no such thing as cheating, just Differences of Rule Interpretation.
Last edited by AU N EGL; 09-18-2007 at 08:23 AM.
09-18-2007, 08:06 AM
#12
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
My suggestion for next year is to require all of the 4wd cars to show up wednesday evening at one of the local dyno shops. If that means everyone of them need to go to Toledo (Pure Tuning??) or Cleveland, or Buschers(sp?), so be it.
Once they pass the dyno run they can be properly sealed and head to the track. While on track the MaxQdata should be installed for the entire event. If something doesn't match up during the weekend then they are cheating. Period, end of story, bu-bye.
Once they pass the dyno run they can be properly sealed and head to the track. While on track the MaxQdata should be installed for the entire event. If something doesn't match up during the weekend then they are cheating. Period, end of story, bu-bye.
09-18-2007, 11:10 AM
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How does anyone know how much over Patrick's car was?? It hasn't been published. He wrote that apology and I frankly believe him. My car came in at 8.73 to 1 against an 8.7 limit. Planning to the rules is racing, making a mistake is making a mistake. It was unfair to Moser, Sawtelle AND Patrick not to be able to resolve this at the track for lack of a 4wd dyno. Last year that S4 stomped a puddle in Jody and me and walked it dry, but it was legal because there was no power to weight cap. This year there was and it got him. No idea on Greg's comments...
If you haven't been to the nationals take a look at the cars, people are serious, that means there will be lots of planning to the rules, and unfortunately bending of the rules. I figured my fellow vette guys would look me over closely, and some did. There will be more and more racers policing racers as this grows, I wish it wasn't but we aren't in Eutopia.
If you haven't been to the nationals take a look at the cars, people are serious, that means there will be lots of planning to the rules, and unfortunately bending of the rules. I figured my fellow vette guys would look me over closely, and some did. There will be more and more racers policing racers as this grows, I wish it wasn't but we aren't in Eutopia.
09-18-2007, 11:19 AM
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HP/Wt ratios are NOT public information. NASA Tech Officials are the only ones who can openly request and must see to verify the numbers. Now if they put your car on the dyno at an event, that is different.
Now other competitors can loge a written complaint with the appropriate fee of $500 to PROTEST an other competitors equipment.
Should every ones Wt and HP numbers be published? and what about the smart arzes who know how to program and tune a car with lower HP numbers but gawd awful high TQ numbers ?? These cars may not have high top ends but they will blast out of corners like rocket ships,
Now other competitors can loge a written complaint with the appropriate fee of $500 to PROTEST an other competitors equipment.
Should every ones Wt and HP numbers be published? and what about the smart arzes who know how to program and tune a car with lower HP numbers but gawd awful high TQ numbers ?? These cars may not have high top ends but they will blast out of corners like rocket ships,
Last edited by AU N EGL; 09-18-2007 at 11:22 AM.
09-18-2007, 11:29 AM
#15
Le Mans Master
Curiouser and curiouser!
I wonder why Robb Holland pulled his protest in ST-2? Was it because he finished 3rd and had no chance for 1st even if Lindsey was DQ'ed?
Hmmm ... Curiouser and curiouser!
I wonder why Robb Holland pulled his protest in ST-2? Was it because he finished 3rd and had no chance for 1st even if Lindsey was DQ'ed?
Hmmm ... Curiouser and curiouser!
09-18-2007, 12:09 PM
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Update on the Update:
Source: http://www.nasaforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=17646
As some of you may know, there was some controversy in the ST2 class in regard to the #212 Audi of Patrick Lindsey. A protest was filed by a competitor that believed that the car was under it's legal adjusted weight/power ratio. NASA Officials sealed the car after the ST race, and ordered that the car get dyno'd the following day. However, the competitor that filed the protest withdrew the protest, and the order to dyno test the car was withdrawn, and the ST results were made official. However, the request was still present to dyno test the car for TTS. The competitor was very confident that the car would pass the dyno test without any problems, and proceeded to cancel plane reservations, and at great expense take the car (along with myself) to get dyno tested on a Mustang AWD dynamometer yesterday morning.
Those results confirmed our GPS data collection during TT/ST sessions that the car was likely overpowered for it's weight in TTS/ST2, and the car/competitor were D/Q'd in TTS. It is very clear that the competitor believed that the car was legal until after the dyno testing was competed. And, it is also clear that accusations of sandbagging and/or using hidden switches/timing-fuel maps were unfounded, as evidenced by the failure of the car to pass dyno testing. Patrick was very distraught to find that the car was in-fact not legal, and although the ST2 results were made official, and the protest was withdrawn, he has asked NASA to declare him as a DNF, and he is declining the championship that he was awarded. So, congratulations to Tony Buffamonte, our 2007 NASA ST2 National Champion, as well as Robb Holland and James Wagaman for their second and third place finishes.
I would also like to commend Patrick Lindsey for his honesty and integrity. It is very clear to me and NASA that he thought that his dyno testing at home prior to the event was accurate, and that the dyno testing we did yesterday would vindicate him from the myriad of accusations on both the car and his character. Unfortunately for him, both the NASA GPS data and some of his fellow competitors were correct regarding the weight/power ratio of the vehicle. Those that attacked Patrick and his crew's character, and accused them of having hidden "cheater modifications" have hopefully learned something about Patrick Lindsey, and are reminded that just because a car is not legal, it does not mean that the competitor is intentionally cheating. In fact, it is my experience with NASA, that the majority of vehicles that are found to be non-compliant are due to honest mistakes made by competitors.
Also, it is very nice to have validation of our GPS monitoring system of all-wheel drive vehicles.
_________________
Greg Greenbaum
National & SoCal TT, PT, & ST Director
USTCC #77
greg@nasa-tt.com
Those results confirmed our GPS data collection during TT/ST sessions that the car was likely overpowered for it's weight in TTS/ST2, and the car/competitor were D/Q'd in TTS. It is very clear that the competitor believed that the car was legal until after the dyno testing was competed. And, it is also clear that accusations of sandbagging and/or using hidden switches/timing-fuel maps were unfounded, as evidenced by the failure of the car to pass dyno testing. Patrick was very distraught to find that the car was in-fact not legal, and although the ST2 results were made official, and the protest was withdrawn, he has asked NASA to declare him as a DNF, and he is declining the championship that he was awarded. So, congratulations to Tony Buffamonte, our 2007 NASA ST2 National Champion, as well as Robb Holland and James Wagaman for their second and third place finishes.
I would also like to commend Patrick Lindsey for his honesty and integrity. It is very clear to me and NASA that he thought that his dyno testing at home prior to the event was accurate, and that the dyno testing we did yesterday would vindicate him from the myriad of accusations on both the car and his character. Unfortunately for him, both the NASA GPS data and some of his fellow competitors were correct regarding the weight/power ratio of the vehicle. Those that attacked Patrick and his crew's character, and accused them of having hidden "cheater modifications" have hopefully learned something about Patrick Lindsey, and are reminded that just because a car is not legal, it does not mean that the competitor is intentionally cheating. In fact, it is my experience with NASA, that the majority of vehicles that are found to be non-compliant are due to honest mistakes made by competitors.
Also, it is very nice to have validation of our GPS monitoring system of all-wheel drive vehicles.
_________________
Greg Greenbaum
National & SoCal TT, PT, & ST Director
USTCC #77
greg@nasa-tt.com
09-18-2007, 12:37 PM
#17
Safety Car
HP/Wt ratios are NOT public information. NASA Tech Officials are the only ones who can openly request and must see to verify the numbers. Now if they put your car on the dyno at an event, that is different.
Now other competitors can loge a written complaint with the appropriate fee of $500 to PROTEST an other competitors equipment.
Now other competitors can loge a written complaint with the appropriate fee of $500 to PROTEST an other competitors equipment.
Protests must be in writing and cost $25. If the protest is unfounded (for example, hp claims are verified on the dyno) then the protestor must pay the dyno costs. In this case, the car was non-compliant and therefore Pat got stuck with the costs.
09-18-2007, 12:44 PM
#18
Safety Car
Look, I don't know where the car dyno'd. In fact, no one but Lindsey and Greenbaum know the real numbers and they're probably never going to tell. But there were waaaayyy too many things that could have gone differently that would have made this easier to swallow for the rest of us.
1. There was similar controversey last year about Pat and this exact car
2. Pat did nothing to help his cause once he was accused, even refusing to have the car dyno'd on Friday (it was offered for FREE by Pure Tuning, a local EVO tuner)
3. Pat denyed hearing that data ports must be sealed, yet everyone else in the room agreed that this was stated in the very first driver's meeting. He then refused to tape it off later.
4. People with lots more HP mentioned that the car seemed too fast in comparison
5. If the car was really close to legal, don't you think he would have advertised the actual numbers?
If I cheat, get caught, and then write an eloquent apology letter are you all going to blow sunshine up my **** as well? This is ridiculous. Intentional or not, if your car is illegal it's f'ing illegal. The victims are Moser, Sautelle, etc. because their hard won podiums were tainted by this crap.
1. There was similar controversey last year about Pat and this exact car
2. Pat did nothing to help his cause once he was accused, even refusing to have the car dyno'd on Friday (it was offered for FREE by Pure Tuning, a local EVO tuner)
3. Pat denyed hearing that data ports must be sealed, yet everyone else in the room agreed that this was stated in the very first driver's meeting. He then refused to tape it off later.
4. People with lots more HP mentioned that the car seemed too fast in comparison
5. If the car was really close to legal, don't you think he would have advertised the actual numbers?
If I cheat, get caught, and then write an eloquent apology letter are you all going to blow sunshine up my **** as well? This is ridiculous. Intentional or not, if your car is illegal it's f'ing illegal. The victims are Moser, Sautelle, etc. because their hard won podiums were tainted by this crap.
09-18-2007, 02:16 PM
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I'll stand up for you ScaryFast.... All i know is what is see. He is definitely not a hero, he definitely isn't a victim, he definitely didn't handle the situation right when confronted about taping his port. But I will give him, you, anyone one "benefit of the doubt" credit, accept one apology for an infraction and thank anyone who fesses up. Too little of that anywhere today....
09-18-2007, 02:39 PM
#20
I'm not gonna get into the debate about this particular situation, but having been involved with american iron, the nasa class that started the dyno thing as far as I know, since its beginning I can tell you a few things. First is that those of you who rely on the dyno are foolish. It can be cheated in far too many ways. Its not a reliable test. The other things is that as competitors get serious they push the limits of everything. In my opinion if a competitor is not pushing the limits then they don't belong in racing. Over the years I've heard so many whine about all kinds of unfair advantages. Racing is not cheap. Those that are not willing to do the work or pay someone that knows how should not complain. I am not attacking anyone here, but I am telling all those that are new to this what you are in for. Lastly, in professional racing cheating is far more common than most think. You gotta look deeper than the surface.
Oh, one more thing, car preparation goes a long way. I noticed that the audi has a really nice aero package on it. A proper aero package can be worth as much as 2 seconds on a track like mid-ohio. Pat's AI car has a very similar aero package on it and it has proved to be 2 seconds faster at sears point. It's not just a matter of bolting on some wing and going at it.
-V
Oh, one more thing, car preparation goes a long way. I noticed that the audi has a really nice aero package on it. A proper aero package can be worth as much as 2 seconds on a track like mid-ohio. Pat's AI car has a very similar aero package on it and it has proved to be 2 seconds faster at sears point. It's not just a matter of bolting on some wing and going at it.
-V
