Letter to fix the BSP class
10-26-2007, 06:45 PM
#1
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Letter to fix the BSP class
http://sccaforums.com/forums/thread/270208.aspx
If there going to let the rally cars run unlimited boost, then bump them to ASP or let us C4's run a cam and gears!
If there going to let the rally cars run unlimited boost, then bump them to ASP or let us C4's run a cam and gears!
10-26-2007, 08:10 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
Brian,
Not a snowball's chance for either or any of the above.
I put a post there, two below yours. It is pretty blunt, but sometimes the truth hurts. The SEB, by their inaction has pretty much ruined BSP, to the point where it probably won't recover as we know it. It will become the defacto rally car class and the BSP cars as we know them won't have a place to run.
Not a snowball's chance for either or any of the above.
I put a post there, two below yours. It is pretty blunt, but sometimes the truth hurts. The SEB, by their inaction has pretty much ruined BSP, to the point where it probably won't recover as we know it. It will become the defacto rally car class and the BSP cars as we know them won't have a place to run.
10-26-2007, 09:12 PM
#4
Instructor
Hell, I don't want them in ASP either so no thanks. The only fix for the Rally cars is their own class but I doubt the SCCA will do that any time soon and as already mentioned, the damage has been done in BSP and it would probably not recover anytime soon if ever.
10-27-2007, 09:15 AM
#5
Melting Slicks
In Street prepared you can do anything to the engine from the mainfold faces outward. That is, you can use any intake and exhaust system, any water pump and accessories, you can pull the AC system. You can blueprint the motor, and that is pretty much it for the power department. A good LT4 blueprinted will give you about the same 400hp as a stock C5Z...
For handlling you can change springs (but not type, you still need fiberglass leaf springs), you can change shocks, and you can add additional links (more intendended for solid axle cars). You can put in offset bushings and poly is allowed. Wheels and tires are free and you can hack out the fenders for clearance, or you can flare the fenders if you want to keep it neat looking. You can relocate the battery.
You can update and backdate within a given body style, but you can't put an LS7 motor into a C4 (although it would be pretty neat), You are basically limited to swapping out parts between 84 and 96 so long as they are "bolt on" changes. You could for instance put a 90's rear supsension on an 84, things like that.
You have to have a full stock interior, roll bars and cages can be added, but are limited so that they don't add too much stiffness to the frame.
That is most of it. You can look at the SCCA rules in detail, but the idea is to allow you to build up a "parts bin" car using the best parts from the series and then put headers and an intake on it, and do it for a reasonable amount of money. Problem is, when you start to blueprint motors and do everything that is allowed, it can get pretty expensive.
For handlling you can change springs (but not type, you still need fiberglass leaf springs), you can change shocks, and you can add additional links (more intendended for solid axle cars). You can put in offset bushings and poly is allowed. Wheels and tires are free and you can hack out the fenders for clearance, or you can flare the fenders if you want to keep it neat looking. You can relocate the battery.
You can update and backdate within a given body style, but you can't put an LS7 motor into a C4 (although it would be pretty neat), You are basically limited to swapping out parts between 84 and 96 so long as they are "bolt on" changes. You could for instance put a 90's rear supsension on an 84, things like that.
You have to have a full stock interior, roll bars and cages can be added, but are limited so that they don't add too much stiffness to the frame.
That is most of it. You can look at the SCCA rules in detail, but the idea is to allow you to build up a "parts bin" car using the best parts from the series and then put headers and an intake on it, and do it for a reasonable amount of money. Problem is, when you start to blueprint motors and do everything that is allowed, it can get pretty expensive.
Last edited by Solofast; 10-27-2007 at 09:17 AM.
10-27-2007, 01:29 PM
#6
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Looks like it's more than just the Vettes wanting them in their own class.
Seems the AWD cars should be put into their own class for the sake of 1) rain 2) gravel surfaces.
What's the good of attracting new members if you loose the current ones.
Seems the AWD cars should be put into their own class for the sake of 1) rain 2) gravel surfaces.
What's the good of attracting new members if you loose the current ones.
10-27-2007, 01:54 PM
#7
Pro
This is not correct. There is no allowance in the SP ruleset for aftermarket water pumps of a different type than stock, so for example you cannot use a Meziere electric water pump in place of the belt-driven stock pump.
This is correct, except that engine/transmission swaps can only be done as complete units - you can't mix/match parts for those assemblies.
This is not completely correct. The full interior does have to remain, but you can replace the steering wheel with a racing version and you can replace seats with full race seats provided they meet the new-for-2008 weight restriction and are bolted in via the factory mounting points.
Amen!!!
You can update and backdate within a given body style, but you can't put an LS7 motor into a C4 (although it would be pretty neat), You are basically limited to swapping out parts between 84 and 96 so long as they are "bolt on" changes. You could for instance put a 90's rear supsension on an 84, things like that.
You have to have a full stock interior ..
... when you start to blueprint motors and do everything that is allowed, it can get pretty expensive.
10-27-2007, 02:12 PM
#8
Drifting
If the rally cars ran thier own class I would re-think the idea of going to nationals. I'd love to go but not with those damn rally cars hanging around. Nobody even mentioned running against them in the rain. Minute point but if I were going to nationals I'd factor everything in. A vette with rains would be dead meat against an AWD.
Edit: Didn't see your post mentioning rain Brian. I think it's a very valid point though.
Edit: Didn't see your post mentioning rain Brian. I think it's a very valid point though.
Last edited by AUTO_X_AL; 10-27-2007 at 02:15 PM.
10-27-2007, 07:08 PM
#9
Melting Slicks
I was thinking about the accessories being free, you are right, you can't change the water pump, but you can change the belts and accessories to deal with the removal of the AC sytem...
Good catch on the seats and steering wheel, fogot about those. The stock vette seats (non-power) aren't that heavy so we didn't change them out...
Good catch on the seats and steering wheel, fogot about those. The stock vette seats (non-power) aren't that heavy so we didn't change them out...
10-27-2007, 07:31 PM
#10
Melting Slicks
I can understand an argument about unlimited boost. Letting these guys adjust their HP on demand while you can't do a cam or head work on an NA car is crazy. I'm sure the BSP C4 and M3 folks are upset.
But getting these rally cars in their own class is not going to happen. It isn't just BSP affected. An STi can run in AS or one of the STx classes or I believe ESP? The WRX and RS also traverse classes. Then you have the Evo similar to the STi. Thrown in some old Talon AWD and Celica Alltracs etc...
In general the AWD cars have a big edge at certain sites. Gritty or wet surface and AWD bails them out. Any sites with sealed tar and AWD bails them out. While all the FWD and RWD folks go sliding around. The only site I had a level playing field was at an old WWII runway. It was hell on tires but very grippy. It really didn't matter what wheels drove the car there.
But getting these rally cars in their own class is not going to happen. It isn't just BSP affected. An STi can run in AS or one of the STx classes or I believe ESP? The WRX and RS also traverse classes. Then you have the Evo similar to the STi. Thrown in some old Talon AWD and Celica Alltracs etc...
In general the AWD cars have a big edge at certain sites. Gritty or wet surface and AWD bails them out. Any sites with sealed tar and AWD bails them out. While all the FWD and RWD folks go sliding around. The only site I had a level playing field was at an old WWII runway. It was hell on tires but very grippy. It really didn't matter what wheels drove the car there.
10-28-2007, 11:44 AM
#11
Drifting
You know I hope they don't fix this crap now becuase all the rally car a$$ holes need somewhere to play. I'm happy playing elsewhere. Let them have their 12 car spec evo class. Maybe NASA would be a better option seeing as SCCA has perfected the art of f**king up classes.
SCCA can keep their
.
SCCA can keep their
.
10-28-2007, 10:58 PM
#13
Melting Slicks
If the C4 guys think they have it bad, last year ALL the rallye cars were in ESP, including STi and Evo. The f-body guys were crying bloody murder. Currently, only the base WRX can run ESP. The STi and Evo go straight to BSP.
I do have a word of caution: remember what happened to BP. If the C4 guys stop showing up to 'protest' a certain car or cars, the SCCA isn't going to feel bad, just can the class (probably not this time due to the popularity of the boost buggies).
I do have a word of caution: remember what happened to BP. If the C4 guys stop showing up to 'protest' a certain car or cars, the SCCA isn't going to feel bad, just can the class (probably not this time due to the popularity of the boost buggies).
10-29-2007, 12:09 AM
#14
Drifting
If the C4 guys think they have it bad, last year ALL the rallye cars were in ESP, including STi and Evo. The f-body guys were crying bloody murder. Currently, only the base WRX can run ESP. The STi and Evo go straight to BSP.
I do have a word of caution: remember what happened to BP. If the C4 guys stop showing up to 'protest' a certain car or cars, the SCCA isn't going to feel bad, just can the class (probably not this time due to the popularity of the boost buggies).
I do have a word of caution: remember what happened to BP. If the C4 guys stop showing up to 'protest' a certain car or cars, the SCCA isn't going to feel bad, just can the class (probably not this time due to the popularity of the boost buggies).
10-29-2007, 12:22 AM
#15
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actually the SCCA should feel bad.
The move was to encourage new members, which it did, but they also lost a lot of old ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, but overall the #'s are down.
and it's not just the SCCA, a lot of other clubs use their rule ratings for events since it's easier to deal with. That said at least clubs that don't tend to group them by RWD, FWD and AWD, that way when it rains it doesn't become complete mayhem. And your right rain is a factor, but when it rains the whole rating system seems to go out the window. Especially when it's rains one part of the event and not the next.
The move was to encourage new members, which it did, but they also lost a lot of old ones. Correct me if I'm wrong, but overall the #'s are down.
and it's not just the SCCA, a lot of other clubs use their rule ratings for events since it's easier to deal with. That said at least clubs that don't tend to group them by RWD, FWD and AWD, that way when it rains it doesn't become complete mayhem. And your right rain is a factor, but when it rains the whole rating system seems to go out the window. Especially when it's rains one part of the event and not the next.
10-29-2007, 09:29 AM
#16
Drifting
If the C4 guys think they have it bad, last year ALL the rallye cars were in ESP, including STi and Evo. The f-body guys were crying bloody murder. Currently, only the base WRX can run ESP. The STi and Evo go straight to BSP.
I do have a word of caution: remember what happened to BP. If the C4 guys stop showing up to 'protest' a certain car or cars, the SCCA isn't going to feel bad, just can the class (probably not this time due to the popularity of the boost buggies).
I do have a word of caution: remember what happened to BP. If the C4 guys stop showing up to 'protest' a certain car or cars, the SCCA isn't going to feel bad, just can the class (probably not this time due to the popularity of the boost buggies).
10-29-2007, 09:50 AM
#17
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10-30-2007, 04:37 PM
#18
Pro
Bsp
My wife and I have run BSP since 2000. Last year we only did seven days and this year six days. This is down from 20 to 30 days a year. The class is not what it once was. I see the reason behind the newer cars, but there should be a place for our cars to be competitive. Harold Olsen is the only one that has been even close to the EVO's in his 96 GS. Granted, T. Berry is one of the best drivers as well. When I loose a half a second in the first three turns at San Deigo NT this year, no contest, race over. I'm not one of the fastest, but I like to have fun, and fun is not loosing by 1 or 2 seconds. I've seen the writing on the wall. I hope something can change for the better because I am not buying a *** car! We've been contemplating giving up on Solo.
10-31-2007, 04:08 PM
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As I read this I can't help but wonder why people are putting up with this crap & not moving to the NCCC where it is all Corvettes.
Before anyone gets to excited....
(1) Yes I realize that the NCCC has some crazy rules too.
(2) I realize that the level of competition is possibly not as high as it is in SCCA. However if more of you start coming to the NCCC events I'm sure that some of the NCCC regulars will step up their game & the comp. level will increase quickly.
(3) I realize that if you are west of the Miss. River that there are not many NCCC events to chose from.
Come on guys give the NCCC a shot, if nothing else I promise you will have a good time & get a lot of runs.
Anthony
Before anyone gets to excited....
(1) Yes I realize that the NCCC has some crazy rules too.
(2) I realize that the level of competition is possibly not as high as it is in SCCA. However if more of you start coming to the NCCC events I'm sure that some of the NCCC regulars will step up their game & the comp. level will increase quickly.
(3) I realize that if you are west of the Miss. River that there are not many NCCC events to chose from.
Come on guys give the NCCC a shot, if nothing else I promise you will have a good time & get a lot of runs.
Anthony