AU N EGL

Should track events be Lapping days or a HPDE ( Educations )?

Lapping days or Test n tune - timing allowed, no instructors

You can VOTE FOR MORE THEN ONE ANSWER

Please list your experience level, number of HPDEs, Lapping days, or Race Lic sanctioning body.

TIA

Tom

sothpaw2

For me personally, HPDE. The lapping involves increased cost of parts, etc. not consistent with most' people's budgets.

4 days (3 events) HPDE this year, 3 days (2 events) back in 2005, fewer before that.

Joy of 6

Been doing HPDE's for 11 years. I try for about 10 each year. Am an instructor. No licenses other than the state issued. There does not seem to be any shortage of students at the HPDE's and per your pole that would be the only place they could start learning. The important part for me is to have turn workers controlling the action so as to keep everybody safe and also having a good time
ciao,
Ed

AU N EGL

Thanks Ed. Noted.

VetteDrmr

I voted for DEs, as most people that want to try DEs at all are somewhat intimidated already, and I see NCM's events as reaching out to the whole Vette community. There are other great organizations that have W2W competition for those that need the adrenaline.

Have a good one,
Mike

robvuk

I think you must have HPDE's for most drivers. Think about the insurance ramifications. Most of us still have coverage if it's a DE without timing. Although I hear that's changing. Secondly, what happens to newbies? Everyone has to start somewhere. If I were a newbie, I'd be scared to death of going out on the track with a bunch of other newbies, everyone passing in the wrong zones without proper signals and mixed in with those who are too aggressive and those who are out for a cruise through the local drive-in on Sundays. As you know, there are many newbies who come to their first event ever in a new Z06 equipped with DOT 3 brake fluid, cam, headers, sticky rubber and TC/AH turned off.

If anything, make timing available only for the advanced groups with race cars. Those who have dedicated track cars will of course prefer to have lapping days with timing. I think that some of the guys that appear at the NCM events with full blown race cars are of course needed at the HPDE's as instructors but it can't be fun for them to share the track with street cars. I've seen some pretty scary looking scenarios in the red group.

Having said that, timing of course helps students to learn when they are doing something right. But I think it would promote car mods more than refined skills.

I got my start in drag racing in the 70's. Then WERA and AMA motorcycle roadracing events in the 80's. I survived that for a couple of years, took a break and started high speed autocrossing in SCCA events in 92 on roadcourses. I eventually switched to the HPDE's with NASA, MFBA and NCM.

bb69

We always have a fair amount of beginner drivers at our track days and it doesn't seem to be a problem. To be honest, I want beginners to be scared a little. To me, I fear nothing more than someone on the track with no fear; I believe they are ones that cause problems. The key is to have multiple groups with the people in the group at approximately the same level. I don't want everyone to be the same speed, because then they don't get experience passing and getting passed.

A key for any event organizer is also flexibility. We are always on the lookout for people that need to be moved to another group. I've had just as many people ask to be moved down a group as move up a group.

My answer to your poll is that all of the options are needed. Many people are simply looking for track time at a reasonable price and they prefer the lapping day scenario. A lot more seem to have a daily driver they would like to try on the track, and that means it can't be timed.

Ken

heavychevy

After you reach a certain level of speed, and start competiting, HPDE's are not as fun anymore, unless you can fund someone in the ballpark to have fun with.

But I see the need for HPDE, just not for me.

OKsweetrides

I try for 20-25 days a year of track time when the car is outta the shop.

I'll be looking at NASA requirements for me and the car, and if it lines up with something I could fit in my schedule and relative modifications, I'll look at that option.

mousecatcher

i don't understand the question. why are these mutually exclusive?

AU N EGL

The Insurance companies that cover HPDEs, Do not allow timing. Most personal auto insurances policies do not cover the car that is a timed event or timed in anyway.

Timing is considered race or competition training.

It is mutually exclusive and not a matter of semantics.

But does that mean you want TIMING and In car instructors?


Clubs that allow timing and call themselves Drivers Education, but not racing are cutting a very fine line.

NASA is self Insured, so that is a different story.

mousecatcher

the track or event does not need to offer timing in order for you to have a lapping day. you can do your own timing. in fact almost all DE's I go to work that way, and allow open passing in the race prep group, and you can elect to have an instructor if you like (or not).

ZR1 MK

I see it that way too.
I have years of experience and a street car, so I voted for lapping/timed events, but I dont see why the HPDE events cant have it all. Have beginner groups with instructions and let the fast and experienced groups run free with passing anywhere.
The main question regarding timing is do you plan on timing with stop watches on a timed run season later in day or transponders taking times during the course of day?

AU N EGL

Not Running Time Trails, Just have the AMB transponder (MyLap ) time loop running and a print out of every ones times.

Yes that means cars have an AMB transponder.


The clarification is KandK Insurance company which almost all tracks use and almost all event organizers use, does not allow timing at events for HPDEs.

So if one person puts up a timer, that may jeopardized the events and tracks coverage.

However, there are other insurance companies that will cover timed events, at a different rate, but your personal car may not be covered.

mousecatcher

Yet all HPDE's I attend allow IR (hotlap/ultralap) timing "on your own". Also, a bit more expensive but OTOH it gives you more info, you can do GPS timing without a trackside beacon.

Some HPDE groups even use AMB timing, and charge something like $20 to use it.

Have you been to a HPDE where you've actually been prevented from setting up an IR beacon?

mousecatcher

I thought the "E" in HPDE stood for Experience, not Education. I haven't heard of any HPDE's where you were required to have an instructor unless of course you were in the (self-selected) novice group.

97C5inSD

I have no raceing liscence. But i live in a area where i have to travel many miles for a track and i'm realative new. 400 miles in my closest road course. So for me i take just about any track time i can get. I compte more in AX cause i can find that withing 120-300 miles granted finding compotion there anymore is hard so i'm gona be moving on to farther venues.

I think Open track days are a good thing for those folks that wana take there car out and run it. Most of the tracks up here i know have a program for that but you have to pass there in house school before you can do that. The HPDE format i have not had a chance to partake in yet but from what i have read and heard i think is actually much better and safer.

But like anything people grow and get better they will want compoition which at this point i think going into the TT Format or more competivie racing will come. Think personally for the most part the programs are set up there pretty well

AU N EGL

YES. The NCM events we do not allow timing or timing beacons, do to our insurance carriers requirements. Same with a few other events I have DEs I have been too.

However, many things are changing for events and coverage. Some tracks leave the AMB loop operating all the time, some tracks charge extra to turn it on.

and some clubs just dont care and have very very relaxed rules. Where these events are really OPEN lapping with optional instructor.

Z Fast

For a street car, I vote HPDE. If you want unoffcial timing to see how you are doing, do an in car video But the reality, HPDE shouldn't be timed. That is not the intent of a DE day. To me, it's a place where I can drive my Z06 the way it was meant to without going to jail

The hot lapping and test and tune days are for my race car.

mousecatcher

ok in that case i would prefer "HPDE" events as opposed to lapping days. it brings more people into the fold.