any racers use pro blend additives?
02-17-2008, 12:28 PM
#4
Premium Supporting Vendor
I don't use any oil additives, nor would I recommend any. No major oil company that I'm aware of recommends any oil additives. The owner's manual also recommends against oil additives.
You do want to find an oil with a high amount of ZDDP anti-wear additive for track use. Recent API SM standards put significant limitations on ZDDP additives, particularly for 30 weight oils. The AMSOIL 10w40 I use has very high levels of ZDDP anti-wear additives.
You do want to find an oil with a high amount of ZDDP anti-wear additive for track use. Recent API SM standards put significant limitations on ZDDP additives, particularly for 30 weight oils. The AMSOIL 10w40 I use has very high levels of ZDDP anti-wear additives.
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C66 Racing #66 NASA ST2, SCCA T2
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AMSOIL Ordering Information (Retail sales using reference #1206638 benefit the forum.)
AMSOIL Preferred Customer Program (Members buy at Wholesale - a savings of about 25%)
AMSOIL Catalog
02-17-2008, 10:55 PM
#5
Le Mans Master
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I don't use any oil additives, nor would I recommend any. No major oil company that I'm aware of recommends any oil additives. The owner's manual also recommends against oil additives.
You do want to find an oil with a high amount of ZDDP anti-wear additive for track use. Recent API SM standards put significant limitations on ZDDP additives, particularly for 30 weight oils. The AMSOIL 10w40 I use has very high levels of ZDDP anti-wear additives.
You do want to find an oil with a high amount of ZDDP anti-wear additive for track use. Recent API SM standards put significant limitations on ZDDP additives, particularly for 30 weight oils. The AMSOIL 10w40 I use has very high levels of ZDDP anti-wear additives.
+ degrees its been around 50 years, it works. oil companies add tons of additives to their own oils. amsoil and redline have been using this stuff for decades.
i did my homework 
"Polyol Ester"Thanks!
PPS the new 20-50 mobil has extra ZDDP in it now..I use that
02-18-2008, 12:40 PM
#6
Premium Supporting Vendor
Rusty,
Polyol Esters are a Group V synthetic basestock. Redline uses a Group V basestock in their oils. AMSOIL uses a Group IV, polyalphaolefins or PAO, basestock. I too have read that AMSOIL adds about 5-10% of polyol esters to its basestock as the esters provide a decrease in the PAO's coefficient of friction. That said, if adding more was beneficial, I don't see why AMSOIL (or any other oil company) wouldn't add more. I personally think that adding more may not provide you the benefit you think you are getting. Then again, I'm not a chemist, so who knows.
What Mobil 20w50 are you using? According to Mobil 1's website, Mobil 1 and Mobile 1 EP only come in 15w50 (and both of those have relatively low High Temp High Shear ratings compared to AMSOIL and Redline).
Polyol Esters are a Group V synthetic basestock. Redline uses a Group V basestock in their oils. AMSOIL uses a Group IV, polyalphaolefins or PAO, basestock. I too have read that AMSOIL adds about 5-10% of polyol esters to its basestock as the esters provide a decrease in the PAO's coefficient of friction. That said, if adding more was beneficial, I don't see why AMSOIL (or any other oil company) wouldn't add more. I personally think that adding more may not provide you the benefit you think you are getting. Then again, I'm not a chemist, so who knows.
What Mobil 20w50 are you using? According to Mobil 1's website, Mobil 1 and Mobile 1 EP only come in 15w50 (and both of those have relatively low High Temp High Shear ratings compared to AMSOIL and Redline).
02-18-2008, 02:58 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
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Rusty,
Polyol Esters are a Group V synthetic basestock. Redline uses a Group V basestock in their oils. AMSOIL uses a Group IV, polyalphaolefins or PAO, basestock. I too have read that AMSOIL adds about 5-10% of polyol esters to its basestock as the esters provide a decrease in the PAO's coefficient of friction. That said, if adding more was beneficial, I don't see why AMSOIL (or any other oil company) wouldn't add more. I personally think that adding more may not provide you the benefit you think you are getting. Then again, I'm not a chemist, so who knows.
What Mobil 20w50 are you using? According to Mobil 1's website, Mobil 1 and Mobile 1 EP only come in 15w50 (and both of those have relatively low High Temp High Shear ratings compared to AMSOIL and Redline).
Polyol Esters are a Group V synthetic basestock. Redline uses a Group V basestock in their oils. AMSOIL uses a Group IV, polyalphaolefins or PAO, basestock. I too have read that AMSOIL adds about 5-10% of polyol esters to its basestock as the esters provide a decrease in the PAO's coefficient of friction. That said, if adding more was beneficial, I don't see why AMSOIL (or any other oil company) wouldn't add more. I personally think that adding more may not provide you the benefit you think you are getting. Then again, I'm not a chemist, so who knows.
What Mobil 20w50 are you using? According to Mobil 1's website, Mobil 1 and Mobile 1 EP only come in 15w50 (and both of those have relatively low High Temp High Shear ratings compared to AMSOIL and Redline).
from what i have read 20 percent is max on benefits from polyol in auto engines. What do you mean by It making PAO less slippery? perhaps at lower temps? I believe this stuff kicks in when it hot....250 degree or higher oil temps.... Like a race car not a waxer car
It loves HEAT! 
This stuff really does little for a normally run engine. Probably why its not mass marketed.
works even better in motorcycles!!!!
finding an amazing amount of different Esters, looks like Jojoba is winning !
02-18-2008, 05:02 PM
#8
Premium Supporting Vendor
From my perspective, the Mobil 1 EP 15w50 is the better oil as measured by its High Temp High Shear rating, which I feel is a valid measure of the oils performance as it relates to conditions we see on the track. The Mobil 1 EP 15w50 HTHS rating is 4.6 compared to the base Mobil 1 15w50 HTHS rating of 4.5. For comparison, the AMSOIL Series 2000 20w50 HTHS using the same ASTM standard is 5.8. Redline uses a different ASTM standard to report their HTHS rating so not I'm sure sure a direct comparison is valid, but they report their 15w50 HTHS as 5.8 and their 20w50 as 6.1.
Realy not sure if by adding extra polyol esters to the Mobil 1 if you are raising its HTHS ratings to near that of AMSOIL or Redline, but you might be.
As for your question on poylol ester's impact on Group IV synthetics, here is something I found elsewhere on the internet. Can't vouch for its authenticity, but it matches what I've read many times. I've bolded the statements about ester's impact on PAO basestocks:
"Esters: Polyolesters (Neopentyl Poly Esters)
Polyol esters are formed by reacting an alcohol with two or more reactive hydroxyl groups. These fluids are used primarily for aircraft engines, high temperature gas turbines, hydraulic fluids and heat exchange fluids. Polyol esters are much more expensive than diesters. Lubricating greases with polyol esters as the base fluid are particularly suited to high temperature applications. Polyol esters have the same advantages/disadvantages as diesters. They are, however, much more stable and tend to be used instead of diesters where temperature stability is important. In general, a polyol ester is thought to be 40-50 deg. C. more thermally stable than a diester of the same viscosity. Esters give much lower coefficients of friction than those of PAO and mineral oil. By adding 5-10% of an ester to a PAO or mineral oil the oils coefficient of friction can be reduced markedly.
Polymerized alpha olefin: Polyalphaolefin, Olefin Polymers, Olefin Oligomers- a synthetic hydrocarbon
PAOs are commonly used to designate olefin oligomers and olefin polymers. The term PAO was first used by Gulf Oil Company (later acquired by Chevron), but it has now become an accepted generic term for hydrocarbons manufactured by the catalytic oligomerization of linear alpha olefins having six or more carbon atoms. PAOs are gaining rapid acceptance as high-performance lubricants and functional fluids because they exhibit certain inherent and highly desirable characteristics. These favorable properties include:
A wide operational temperature range.
Good viscometrics (high viscosity index).
Thermal Stability.
Oxidative Stability.
Hydrolytic stability. *
Shear stability.
Low corrosivity.
Compatibility with mineral oils.
Compatibility with various materials of construction.
Low toxicity.
Manufacturing flexibility that allows tailoring products to specific end-use application requirements.
* Of particular interest in relation to demonstrating superior hydrolytic stability of PAO fluids is a test that was conducted to find a replacement for a silicate ester based aircraft coolant/dielectric fluid used by the U.S. military in aircraft radar systems. The test method required treating the fluids with 0.1% water and maintaining the fluid at 170 or 250 deg. F. for up to 250 hours. Samples were withdrawn at 20- hour intervals, and the flash points were measured by the closed cup method. A decrease in flash point was interpreted as being indicative of hydrolytic breakdown to form lower-molecular-weight products. The PAO showed no decrease in flash point in any of the test conditions, while the silicate ester based fluid showed marked decreases. The PAO fluid maintained started out with a flash point of 300 deg. F. and only dropped to 295 deg. F. at 80 hours into the test, while the silicate ester fluid, which started out with a flash point of 270 deg. F., ended up with a flash point of 220 deg. F. at only 55 hours into the test.
PAOs are used extensively as automotive lubricants (engine, gear, transmission, grease, hydraulic). PAOs are also super premium oils for automotive applications operating in temperature extremes. PAOs are a synthetic hydrocarbon that is compatible with mineral oils. In industrial applications, they may be combined with organic esters to be used in high temperature gear and bearing oils, as well as gas turbines. They are also used as a base fluid in some wide temperature range greases.
The general manufacturing process used to form PAOs is performed by combining a low molecular weight material, usually ethylene gas, into a specific olefin which is oligomerized into a lubricating oil material and then hydrogen stabilized. There are a variety of basic building block molecules used to form the finished lubricant, which are dependent on the range of requirements of the specific lubricant.
Seal compatibility is an important factor for any lubricant. Unlike mineral oils, PAO does not have a tendency to swell elastomeric materials. Early commercial PAO products were not formulated properly to allow for this difference in behavior. Consequently, early PAOs gained an undeserved reputation for leakage. Extensive tests have since shown that the addition of small quantities of an ester to the formulation easily alleviates this problem.
Recent work has indicated that the proper choice of other performance additives may eliminate the need to employ esters, but this approach is not yet in practice for crankcase applications. In a test of a PAO vs. a mineral oil for seal compatibility, four seal materials were studied: acrylate, silicone, nitrile and fluoroelastomer. The seals were evaluated at the end of the test for changes in tensile strength, elongation, volume (seal swell), and hardness. The PAO performance fell within the specification limits for all four elastomers. The mineral oil failed with silicone. Similar tests have been carried out with fully formulated part- and full-synthetic PAO oils. In all cases the fluids met the specifications.
Recent data shows that PAO-based fluids provide superior performance for the high-tech cars and trucks being built today. Todays engines are smaller and more demanding and operate at higher RPMs and under hood spaces is limited which causes increased operating temperatures. Both the thermal conductivity and heat capacity of PAO fluids are about 10% higher than values for comparable mineral oils. The net result is that PAO-lubricated equipment tends to run cooler."
02-18-2008, 07:13 PM
#9
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Mobil 1 stopped making 15w50 when they released their Extended Performance line and only made 15w50 in the EP version for about a year or so. They rereleased 15w50 in the base 15w50 about a year after the EP came out. So, hard to tell which one is "new". The Mobil 1 15w50 was first, superceeded by the EP 15w50, then the Mobil 1 15w50 was rereleased.
From my perspective, the Mobil 1 EP 15w50 is the better oil as measured by its High Temp High Shear rating, which I feel is a valid measure of the oils performance as it relates to conditions we see on the track. The Mobil 1 EP 15w50 HTHS rating is 4.6 compared to the base Mobil 1 15w50 HTHS rating of 4.5. For comparison, the AMSOIL Series 2000 20w50 HTHS using the same ASTM standard is 5.8. Redline uses a different ASTM standard to report their HTHS rating so not I'm sure sure a direct comparison is valid, but they report their 15w50 HTHS as 5.8 and their 20w50 as 6.1.
Realy not sure if by adding extra polyol esters to the Mobil 1 if you are raising its HTHS ratings to near that of AMSOIL or Redline, but you might be.
As for your question on poylol ester's impact on Group IV synthetics, here is something I found elsewhere on the internet. Can't vouch for its authenticity, but it matches what I've read many times. I've bolded the statements about ester's impact on PAO basestocks:
"Esters: Polyolesters (Neopentyl Poly Esters)
Polyol esters are formed by reacting an alcohol with two or more reactive hydroxyl groups. These fluids are used primarily for aircraft engines, high temperature gas turbines, hydraulic fluids and heat exchange fluids. Polyol esters are much more expensive than diesters. Lubricating greases with polyol esters as the base fluid are particularly suited to high temperature applications. Polyol esters have the same advantages/disadvantages as diesters. They are, however, much more stable and tend to be used instead of diesters where temperature stability is important. In general, a polyol ester is thought to be 40-50 deg. C. more thermally stable than a diester of the same viscosity. Esters give much lower coefficients of friction than those of PAO and mineral oil. By adding 5-10% of an ester to a PAO or mineral oil the oils coefficient of friction can be reduced markedly.
Polymerized alpha olefin: Polyalphaolefin, Olefin Polymers, Olefin Oligomers- a synthetic hydrocarbon
PAOs are commonly used to designate olefin oligomers and olefin polymers. The term PAO was first used by Gulf Oil Company (later acquired by Chevron), but it has now become an accepted generic term for hydrocarbons manufactured by the catalytic oligomerization of linear alpha olefins having six or more carbon atoms. PAOs are gaining rapid acceptance as high-performance lubricants and functional fluids because they exhibit certain inherent and highly desirable characteristics. These favorable properties include:
A wide operational temperature range.
Good viscometrics (high viscosity index).
Thermal Stability.
Oxidative Stability.
Hydrolytic stability. *
Shear stability.
Low corrosivity.
Compatibility with mineral oils.
Compatibility with various materials of construction.
Low toxicity.
Manufacturing flexibility that allows tailoring products to specific end-use application requirements.
* Of particular interest in relation to demonstrating superior hydrolytic stability of PAO fluids is a test that was conducted to find a replacement for a silicate ester based aircraft coolant/dielectric fluid used by the U.S. military in aircraft radar systems. The test method required treating the fluids with 0.1% water and maintaining the fluid at 170 or 250 deg. F. for up to 250 hours. Samples were withdrawn at 20- hour intervals, and the flash points were measured by the closed cup method. A decrease in flash point was interpreted as being indicative of hydrolytic breakdown to form lower-molecular-weight products. The PAO showed no decrease in flash point in any of the test conditions, while the silicate ester based fluid showed marked decreases. The PAO fluid maintained started out with a flash point of 300 deg. F. and only dropped to 295 deg. F. at 80 hours into the test, while the silicate ester fluid, which started out with a flash point of 270 deg. F., ended up with a flash point of 220 deg. F. at only 55 hours into the test.
PAOs are used extensively as automotive lubricants (engine, gear, transmission, grease, hydraulic). PAOs are also super premium oils for automotive applications operating in temperature extremes. PAOs are a synthetic hydrocarbon that is compatible with mineral oils. In industrial applications, they may be combined with organic esters to be used in high temperature gear and bearing oils, as well as gas turbines. They are also used as a base fluid in some wide temperature range greases.
The general manufacturing process used to form PAOs is performed by combining a low molecular weight material, usually ethylene gas, into a specific olefin which is oligomerized into a lubricating oil material and then hydrogen stabilized. There are a variety of basic building block molecules used to form the finished lubricant, which are dependent on the range of requirements of the specific lubricant.
Seal compatibility is an important factor for any lubricant. Unlike mineral oils, PAO does not have a tendency to swell elastomeric materials. Early commercial PAO products were not formulated properly to allow for this difference in behavior. Consequently, early PAOs gained an undeserved reputation for leakage. Extensive tests have since shown that the addition of small quantities of an ester to the formulation easily alleviates this problem.
Recent work has indicated that the proper choice of other performance additives may eliminate the need to employ esters, but this approach is not yet in practice for crankcase applications. In a test of a PAO vs. a mineral oil for seal compatibility, four seal materials were studied: acrylate, silicone, nitrile and fluoroelastomer. The seals were evaluated at the end of the test for changes in tensile strength, elongation, volume (seal swell), and hardness. The PAO performance fell within the specification limits for all four elastomers. The mineral oil failed with silicone. Similar tests have been carried out with fully formulated part- and full-synthetic PAO oils. In all cases the fluids met the specifications.
Recent data shows that PAO-based fluids provide superior performance for the high-tech cars and trucks being built today. Todays engines are smaller and more demanding and operate at higher RPMs and under hood spaces is limited which causes increased operating temperatures. Both the thermal conductivity and heat capacity of PAO fluids are about 10% higher than values for comparable mineral oils. The net result is that PAO-lubricated equipment tends to run cooler."
From my perspective, the Mobil 1 EP 15w50 is the better oil as measured by its High Temp High Shear rating, which I feel is a valid measure of the oils performance as it relates to conditions we see on the track. The Mobil 1 EP 15w50 HTHS rating is 4.6 compared to the base Mobil 1 15w50 HTHS rating of 4.5. For comparison, the AMSOIL Series 2000 20w50 HTHS using the same ASTM standard is 5.8. Redline uses a different ASTM standard to report their HTHS rating so not I'm sure sure a direct comparison is valid, but they report their 15w50 HTHS as 5.8 and their 20w50 as 6.1.
Realy not sure if by adding extra polyol esters to the Mobil 1 if you are raising its HTHS ratings to near that of AMSOIL or Redline, but you might be.
As for your question on poylol ester's impact on Group IV synthetics, here is something I found elsewhere on the internet. Can't vouch for its authenticity, but it matches what I've read many times. I've bolded the statements about ester's impact on PAO basestocks:
"Esters: Polyolesters (Neopentyl Poly Esters)
Polyol esters are formed by reacting an alcohol with two or more reactive hydroxyl groups. These fluids are used primarily for aircraft engines, high temperature gas turbines, hydraulic fluids and heat exchange fluids. Polyol esters are much more expensive than diesters. Lubricating greases with polyol esters as the base fluid are particularly suited to high temperature applications. Polyol esters have the same advantages/disadvantages as diesters. They are, however, much more stable and tend to be used instead of diesters where temperature stability is important. In general, a polyol ester is thought to be 40-50 deg. C. more thermally stable than a diester of the same viscosity. Esters give much lower coefficients of friction than those of PAO and mineral oil. By adding 5-10% of an ester to a PAO or mineral oil the oils coefficient of friction can be reduced markedly.
Polymerized alpha olefin: Polyalphaolefin, Olefin Polymers, Olefin Oligomers- a synthetic hydrocarbon
PAOs are commonly used to designate olefin oligomers and olefin polymers. The term PAO was first used by Gulf Oil Company (later acquired by Chevron), but it has now become an accepted generic term for hydrocarbons manufactured by the catalytic oligomerization of linear alpha olefins having six or more carbon atoms. PAOs are gaining rapid acceptance as high-performance lubricants and functional fluids because they exhibit certain inherent and highly desirable characteristics. These favorable properties include:
A wide operational temperature range.
Good viscometrics (high viscosity index).
Thermal Stability.
Oxidative Stability.
Hydrolytic stability. *
Shear stability.
Low corrosivity.
Compatibility with mineral oils.
Compatibility with various materials of construction.
Low toxicity.
Manufacturing flexibility that allows tailoring products to specific end-use application requirements.
* Of particular interest in relation to demonstrating superior hydrolytic stability of PAO fluids is a test that was conducted to find a replacement for a silicate ester based aircraft coolant/dielectric fluid used by the U.S. military in aircraft radar systems. The test method required treating the fluids with 0.1% water and maintaining the fluid at 170 or 250 deg. F. for up to 250 hours. Samples were withdrawn at 20- hour intervals, and the flash points were measured by the closed cup method. A decrease in flash point was interpreted as being indicative of hydrolytic breakdown to form lower-molecular-weight products. The PAO showed no decrease in flash point in any of the test conditions, while the silicate ester based fluid showed marked decreases. The PAO fluid maintained started out with a flash point of 300 deg. F. and only dropped to 295 deg. F. at 80 hours into the test, while the silicate ester fluid, which started out with a flash point of 270 deg. F., ended up with a flash point of 220 deg. F. at only 55 hours into the test.
PAOs are used extensively as automotive lubricants (engine, gear, transmission, grease, hydraulic). PAOs are also super premium oils for automotive applications operating in temperature extremes. PAOs are a synthetic hydrocarbon that is compatible with mineral oils. In industrial applications, they may be combined with organic esters to be used in high temperature gear and bearing oils, as well as gas turbines. They are also used as a base fluid in some wide temperature range greases.
The general manufacturing process used to form PAOs is performed by combining a low molecular weight material, usually ethylene gas, into a specific olefin which is oligomerized into a lubricating oil material and then hydrogen stabilized. There are a variety of basic building block molecules used to form the finished lubricant, which are dependent on the range of requirements of the specific lubricant.
Seal compatibility is an important factor for any lubricant. Unlike mineral oils, PAO does not have a tendency to swell elastomeric materials. Early commercial PAO products were not formulated properly to allow for this difference in behavior. Consequently, early PAOs gained an undeserved reputation for leakage. Extensive tests have since shown that the addition of small quantities of an ester to the formulation easily alleviates this problem.
Recent work has indicated that the proper choice of other performance additives may eliminate the need to employ esters, but this approach is not yet in practice for crankcase applications. In a test of a PAO vs. a mineral oil for seal compatibility, four seal materials were studied: acrylate, silicone, nitrile and fluoroelastomer. The seals were evaluated at the end of the test for changes in tensile strength, elongation, volume (seal swell), and hardness. The PAO performance fell within the specification limits for all four elastomers. The mineral oil failed with silicone. Similar tests have been carried out with fully formulated part- and full-synthetic PAO oils. In all cases the fluids met the specifications.
Recent data shows that PAO-based fluids provide superior performance for the high-tech cars and trucks being built today. Todays engines are smaller and more demanding and operate at higher RPMs and under hood spaces is limited which causes increased operating temperatures. Both the thermal conductivity and heat capacity of PAO fluids are about 10% higher than values for comparable mineral oils. The net result is that PAO-lubricated equipment tends to run cooler."
Yup!!!
Good stuff! i been finding similar engineering reports. Pretty cool
