Jason Staley

I’m a newbie to road courses with only 2 HPDE events and a 1 day driving school under my belt so far. The last time at Putnam I installed a Traqmate system and took some data while out on the track. My best lap was 1:34, and the only comparison I’ve found so far on the web is a Z06 running R compound tires doing a lap at 1:19 (not a real good comparison).

I’m wondering if you guys can please give me some constructive criticism. I’m just beginning to learn about this stuff, so I don’t have much of an ego to bruise. Also, does anybody know what a decent lap is at Putnam Park using street tires (non R compounds)?

Here are my observations:
Straight away – looks like I let off gas early and coasted some
Turn 1 – looks like I turned into the corner too early resulting in an early apex
Turn 2 - ?? not sure here. If I turn in so I get to the inside of Turn 2 would I be in a better or worse position for turn 3?
Turn 4 – It’s an off camber corner and I ran off the track here before, so I was trying to stay close to the inside. Should I go slightly wider coming out of turn 3 and apex later?
Turns 5 & 7 – should I apex these corners later?

Black – turn #
Purple – mph
Blue – lateral g’s
Red – braking and acceleration









I’m heading back to Putnam in April for another try at it. So far I’m having a blast at HPDE’s. I’ve signed up for 2 more this year, and am looking at going back to another driving school also. I'm definitely hooked , ... too bad I can't find time and $$$ for more events in a year.

Thanks in advance for any help you can provide,
Jason

Rob Willis

Going to the MVP day on the 21st? If so, I'll meet ya there!

ScaryFast

It's tough to critique you based on topical data at this level, but the line in the maps looks pretty good. If that's the line you run then to lower your lap times you probably just need to be a bit braver. I know that's not the most helpful advice, but with only a handful of events under your belt the basics are probably what you need - smoothness, later braking, etc.

I'd say a stock C5z on street tires could pull a 1:23? The fastest TT guys (Ken, Jesse, Dave) run 1:18's on slicks, so to add about 5 seconds for a good driver on streets seems about right.

Jason Staley

Yeah, that's the one I'm going to. See you in April.

WNeal

Jason,
Bring that to my August event and I will have one of our instructors go over it with you.
See you then. Great to have you registered already.

Just get as much track time as you can and you will get better and faster.
Work more on your technique and skills at this point and not so much on what your lap times are.
Learn to drive smooth and consistent and your lap times will come down all by themselves.


I have an 06 Corvette Coup and was doing 1:23 1:22 on street tires last year.
Switched to Hoosier R6's and some suspension mods and now 1:19 pretty consistantly. Still have a lot to learn myself.

wtknght1

As has been said, it's tough to give a critique on data like this, but there are a few things I can see...and tell you.

The biggest mistakes most beginners make is they try to take the slow corners too fast and the fast ones too slow. I've run Putnam a couple of times back in the mid nineties so I can't give you good estimations on speed.

Looking at the braking numbers though, your max was only .65 according the chart. A stock vette can easily pull -1g under braking. It looks like you're not putting enough force into it. Start off with an easy application, but once the weight xfers, push that pedal down man!

Lines: Your lines look decent, but again, a big mistake by beginners is not using up the whole track. Looking at the line and the track width, you still have space to use. Space is speed - use all of the track.

And finally, look at your exit from turn 7. As you exited, you only went out to half track?! That means you left a lot of speed out there and pinched your steering off as you came out. Let the car drift out and roll that throttle to the floor!!!

Get in tighter to those apexes too. Putnam is great for that due to those "braille" curbs. Keep coming in until you hear your tires go over the curbing. If you're missing your apexes by more than 1 ft, you're leaving a lot of time out there. The same can be said on the exit. Keep unwinding that wheel until you hear the roar of the curbing. Stay off the entry curbing though - it'll upset the car on turn-in.

Keep at it bud...be smooth, smooth, smooth, and get plenty of seat time!!!

asp04

Jason,
I am also fairly new to the big tracks, even though I did alot of cone weaving before the high dollar bug hit me. I have run Putnam Park a few times. Something must be differant, as far as timing goes, compared to other postings here. I did a corvette/porsche shootout last fall and turned a 1:25 from a standing start, 1:20 + on flying laps. The fast guys were down to about high 1:13- 1:14 on flying laps, 1:18 standing start. I think Danny Popp (Raftracer), who is definetly the local hotshoe runs 1:12 or better, in a ST1 corvette.
"Lap times" are certainly a yardstick of speed, but not always a yardstick of fun. I am usually having tons of fun, passing a few here and there, and waving a few by also. Even a Miata passed me before.
1:10 or 2:10, I don't really care. Give me a four wheel drift at about 80 or 90 mph and I'm having fun. Do that with another car right in front or right behind you is double the fun.
I live here in Indy, so I'll probably see you around. R. Ford

jkonkle

That's the first thing I noticed was the pinch on the radius at 7 and the fact he could make 7 - 8 a longer straight. 8 is a long turn you can make up positioning for the exit to the next straight.

Also, I'm not aware of the camber (-/+) of turn 10, but that looks like a good slip angle turn. Can you come out in fourth or do you need the torque of third? If you can come out in fourth that would lose that small bit of coast as you shifted up to fourth or shift to fourth as soon as it straightens out. So you can can focus on the acceleration down to one. At one, make it longer, you seem to be turning in for a long sweeper there. If there aren't any rocks I would brake one second later, hard then ease off brake, onto the accelerator with a bit of throttle, do you need to shift into third on the brake or can fourth pull you through?

The rest of the track looks good, I would focus on those two turns: 7 and 10, then braking into 8 and 1. 8 and 1 will be faster so 9 and 2 will come quicker. I think that's enough.

JK

Jason Staley

Thanks guys for the observations, I appreciate you taking the time to give me advice. I've signed up for 2 events so far, and am hoping to get to 2 or 3 more before the end of the year.

wtknght1,
The -1g under braking .... is that for late mode Vettes? I'm running a 76 so I might not be able to brake quite as hard, not really sure. I definitely didn't push it all the way though and need to get more aggresive in this area.

WNeal,
I'm looking forward to running at your event. I'm considering on signing up for one of the other dates too, just waiting to see if I get a bonus this year.

jkonkle

see my comments about 7 and 10 and their affect on 8 and 1. at 1 seems like you are are coasting before braking, thinking "holy crap I'm going fast, I'm going to hit the sand trap" ...never coast. Always maintain throttle, you don't have to go faster, just keep the car hunkered down with the throttle. I learned this from Lou Gigliotti at 140mph. I think his exact words were...well, I won't repeat what he said....let's just call it "sage advice"

Throw away 2 for 1 and worry about getting setup for 4 to 5. 3 is a diversion. 4-5 is your straight...the rest is so miata's can catch you

Just worry about making straights longer and controlled braking. Control, Consistency and then Cadence (three Cs of road courses)

Also, when ABS comes on, that's how you know you found a limit. Yes r-compound tires will give you a lot more capability, but they will also forgive your mistakes. Street tires squeal going into the maximum traction/slip-angle, r-compound squeal when they are past the maximum traction/slip-angle.

read - squealing r-compound tires means you are already out of control. Street tires squealing is a notice of possible impending doom...

EDIT: sorry, I digressed into r-compound tires. Here is to some times (Bottom of page) TrackPedia Putnam
JK

stax68

Thanks for that info..never knew this..

jkonkle

Well, I learned this on my own, sort of.

While running the track I stuck with street tires until I was four-wheel sliding the car through turns. The street's bark like rabid dog's when slipping. When I switched to hoosier r6's the only time they squealed was when I was at the PNR (point of no return). So I put four tires + squealing == . I also learned that R-compound tell you when you are chopping the car, which at 60-80mph is easy to do. I've gotten much smoother, but it's all about seat time and good training (www.thedriversedge.net). I doubt I will car to car, the HPDEs are fun and this I do for fun.

When my tires squeal now, I am already dialing in steering, before the squeal. I can usually feel the car pushing out. The other thing I've learned is that a little steering input goes a long way. One inch of movement will correct a slight skid. If you get a chance, download Lou's video's at www.lgmotorsports.com - especially the three way - in car, forward track and feet - Italian tap dance.

JK

Jason Staley

Your right, I was coasting and I definitely wasn't sure about my car or my own ability to go faster thru turn 1. I definitely need to work on turns 1 and turn 7.

In addition to being new to this, the first time out my car had some difficulties (understeer and too soft of springs that allowed my rear brakes to lock up under braking at turn 1 ). So for the 2nd event, I made some changes (increased spring rate, hawk HPS plus brake pades, etc.) that definitely helped. However, I was still very unsure of myself. I'm not changing anything before my next event, so at least I'll know what to expect from the car this time out. Now I just have to work on my driving smoothness.

As to ABS, whats that . Seriously, I would love to retrofit ABS to my car if someone would ever make a system (which is doubtful due to liability concerns).

gkull

I sent you an e-mail. Since we don't have an adjustable brake bias the tire diameter and how sticky the tire is has a great effect.

If both rears are consistently locking under hard braking and your front springs and shocks are stiff enough. Going to a larger diameter rear tire or smaller diameter front tire will be enough to balance the braking out.

Just one inch in diameter change between the two has a huge effect on how effective your brakes are.

If you have stock calipers and rotors...... they are going to boil the fluid. The wilwood 580 degree is good starting point on brake fluids. A couple cans is only $20 and use a vacuum or pressure bleeder to get all your old stuff out.

The fronts really need air cooling lines. Three or four inch to the center of the rotors. So the air passes in and through the rotor. Also remove the rotor dust shields. It gets more air flow around the rotor and the added bonus of unsprung weight removed off each wheel.

Tintin

Many years of track events including 24 hour races in various series and countries have taught the folowing:

Never ever allow the car to coast at all. Be either hard on the floor with the throttle or hard on the brake when on the straights. Use a balancing throttle in the corners and occaisionally some left foot braking whilst turning.

Tire noise from road tires is in no way an indication of an impending spin. A loss of control at either end of the car is though, however a car driven at the limit will tend to skip around a bit in the corners regardless of the surface smoothness unless you have wings on the vehicle. I can corner hard enough that the tire noise is louder than the engine in a C5 and not spin the car.

Try going slow enough that you are making all of the apexes perfectly before you try to get lap times. I guarantee you that with your experience you will destroy your car before you will achieve the lap times that some of the guys on here are capable of. If there is no TV, no sponsor and you are not being paid it is stupid to wreck the car competing with yourself... It all comes with practice.

If your rear brakes are locking first , then you need to get a set of HPS Hawks or similar pads for the front and keep the stock pads for the rear. If that doesn't work go to Checker and buy the cheapest rear pads that they have to decrease the braking torque. Rear brakes really only keep the car straight, the fronts do the stopping..

gkull

The problem with cheap brake pads is that they can't take the heat. I had on a set of autozone Carbon metalic pads. When they got hot it melted the glued on backing plate to piston pad piece.

Well it dropped down and was scoring like a lathe cut in the rotor hat. It was only when I pulled the wheels to change tires that i noticed it.

That is also a correct way to change bias using different friction materials front to rear.

jkonkle

I agree with the slow is fast motto. When I first started driving I walked the rear end out on about every turn - yah! Fun != Fast, but it sure is fun.

Also, in my own personal defense - I said possible impending doom. As you can see I padded doom with impending, then stretched it with possible.

Jason Staley

That is one of several reasons I wasn't pushing it to the very limit. I have no intention to trash my car. I went off course on my 1st HPDE at Putnam at Turn 4, but there is a lot of run off room there so it didn't end up bad ... thank goodness. Just a bit of grass stuck in the frame.

After I increased the spring rates & went to HPS Hawks, I didn't get any brake lock up on the 2nd event. I'll see how they do again when pushed harder. If the brakes lockup again, I'll probably install a proportioning valve in the system.


So lets see if I got this straight from the recommendations so far:
1 - First and most important, work on smoothness as my #1 priority
2 - Brake later and harder, especially at Turn 1
3 - Don't coast. Either be on the throttle or brake
4 - Use the full track, especially at Turn 7 where I pinched the corner pretty bad
5 - Get closer to the apexes

Jason Staley

I got rid of the factory cast iron calipers years ago and I'm now running aluminum calipers and Stainless Steel Brake Co. brake fluid with 570F dry boiling point ($9 for 12 oz bottle). Since my calipers are in the stock location and its still a street car, I couldn't figure out how to get 3" or 4" air ducts in there, but I did manage to fit 2" ducts. I fastened the tubing to the factory dust shields near the hub to feed cool air into the center of the front rotors. The ducts get air from scoops mounted behind the front grill openings (3" x 4" rectangular scoops). Its not ideal, but better than nothing.