JSTAN

Anyone using a harness with stock seats?

I have an 02 z06 and have done two HPDE's. I have been having a blast on the course, but I hate having to secure myself with my legs and upper body through the corners.

I was wondering if I can use a harness with the stock seats or will I need to get a racing seat to fully strap me down.

If the harness alone will be sufficient, what combination harness and harness bar do you guys recommend?

AU N EGL

For your saftey we can understand the desire for a harness system.

Most clubs are now asking ( or requirements) that anyone using a harness system should also use a seat designed for the harness system. and identical set ups for each seat.

ie the harness must pass though holes in the seat designed for the harness system.

Wrapping the should harness around the stock C5Z seat is not a really good saftey measure. If you have a accident, your body MAY twist right out of the harness, of the shoulder harness may slide off.

So putting in a seat designed for harness, a race seat would be a better option. Besides a good seat will also have side bolsters to hold you from sliding side to side.

That said there are many seats that are not that expesive and actually very comfortable for DD as well.

HTH
Good Luck

jvp

You've just unwittingly opened a can of worms. :-) Before too long certain "safety *****" are going to chime in about needing a real race seat. They're going to claim that "New HPDE rules for most organizations no longer allow the use of harnesses with street seats."

Well, I haven't run into this yet. So, I guess my first bit of advice would be: ask whomever runs your HPDEs if they even allow it.

Once that's out of the way, I've personally found that any standard 5 point harness system works fine. One thing you'll want to make sure of is that the shoulder belts have sternum straps. The seats in the C5 Z06 (and the newer ones) don't have slots in the seats for belts. This requires you to wrap the shoulder belts over top of the seats, and there's a risk the belts will slide down around the sides of your arms. A sternum strap will prevent that from happening.

The same group of folks are then going to complain that a 5-point harness can't prevent you from submarining if you wrap the anti-sub belt around the front of the seat bottom. Their point is that the belt needs to come up through the seat bottom, not around the front of it. So there are two ways to solve this:

1. Use a 6-point harness, and wrap the anti-sub belt through the rear of the seat bottom; attaching it behind the seat. So you're essentially sitting on the belt.

2. Ignore them, and just wrap the anti-sub around the front of the seat bottom. This is the choice I use, and it's fine. The secret is: there's no where to submarine to in a street car. But don't tell them that... ;-)

(And before the aforementioned group starts complaining I don't know what I'm talking about: I've been in a collision on the race track with that set up. I stayed in the seat, like I was supposed to).

In the end, it's up to you. Check the local rules first, and then go from there.

jas

JSTAN

Thanks for the info guys, keep it coming.

The organization I run with is Sports Car Driving Association (SCDA). I did not see anything on their website in regards to using a harness with stocks seats.

flycastinguy

I have installed a Brey-Krause harness bar in my C6Z with a set of G-Force harnesses. Since my car is mostly used for street driving, replacing the stock seat with a race seat is not an option because of the side airbags installed in the seat. Replacing it would open a world of DIC and code problems. I have found a strap called "The Dick Strap" that fits over the headrest portion of the seat that holds the shoulder harnesses in the proper position. I'll be adding those before my next event. Is it the ideal setup? No. But I can say that it is much safer in my opinion and keeps me much more securely in the seat than with the stock seat belts. My Instructor at NASA/Barber was pleased that I had the harnesses as opposed to just the seatbelts. Whatever you do, just make sure it's properly installed by people that know what they're doing. MTI Racing installed mine.

Good Luck.

Bob

Short-Throw

FYI:

Many vendors including forum supporters here have stopped selling sternum straps. They can provide more harm than good.

Also, a stock seat is not as safe as a race seat being it's two pieces and can fold up on you. Wrapping the belts around a seat prevents the use of a HANS device.

It's all a matter of how far one wants to take safety. The recommendations/rules that are in place with many organizations now are because of prior incidents.

One incident is just that and I'm glad you were lucky in yours. There are plenty others how didn't fare as well as you. Every impact is different, and yes even with protective gear one can get hurt.

This sport is as dangerous as we let it be and as safe as we make it.



Mike

rudyarias

I had an auto trim shop cut, sew leather slots through the headrest and reallgn/lower the springs my stock seats. I discovered that the seats do not have the hole most think it would have becuase of the C5 "sport" seat. Its actually a one piece as the shop had to cut the slot in it. I've been satisfied with the result and none of the clubs have had any issue with the set up.

urtoslo

This is a touchy subject. I'm on the side of "It's better to be prepared" than "You can't tell me what to do". When things happen, they happen fast and you won't have time to install the race seat when it's happening.

Harnesses (with stock seats) work better than stock seats with stock seatbelts, but won't work nearly as well as harnesses with a race seat and a roll bar. You need all three if you go with this way because they work together.

I wouldn't spend my money on a harness bar. Harness bars will hold your harnesses, but won't do anything for you if you roll over. You're thinking that can't happen to you, right, harness bars will do? Think you're special? Hey, my roof will hold up! Are you sure? Have you ever tested your roof structure in a roll over? Know of anyone who has? Try this. Find a car (preferably one just like yours) with a roll bar and push the car with just your hands on the roll bar. Have a friend help you if necessary, but also only using the roll bar to push the car. Now try the same thing, but your hands only on the B pillar. Use your B pillar. Be fair, use the flat area, not a corner of the B pillar. Are you still so sure about your roof structure? Do you want yourself harnessed into your race seat bolt upright with just a harness bar?

GET THE PROPER SAFETY EQUIPMENT INSTALLED. If you're ever involved in a wreck, your family/friends will say what a smart driver you were to have all the necessary stuff in your car that kept you from getting really hurt.

jvp

Here we go.. :-)

Is this theoretical harm or witnessed, proven, documented harm?

I don't think he asked about a HANS. Had he, I wouldn't have recommended what I did. Rewind yourself to 1 month before Earnhardt's accident. How many people were using HANS devices before that? And how many people died because of crashes like Earnhardt's because they didn't have the HANS on?

I'm going to take you to task on this Mike. Prove it. If you can, I'll stop arguing. But my take on it is this: people are just over-reacting.

jas

Wayne O

I'm the first to acknowledge having a seat specifically designed for a harness is preferred. That said, I followed the advice of a vastly more experienced C6 racer and modified my stock seat. I use a Brey-Krause harness bar and a Crow 6-point 'Corvette' cam-lock restraint.

I had an upholstery shop run the shoulder straps through the back of the seat (using plastic 'guides' on the hard interior structure of the seatback). The shoulder straps come out at the upper seam on the front side of the seat.

I think it works fine and it's infinitely superior to the stock seatbelt. I'm incredibly pleased...instead of using your arms and the steering wheel for lateral support of your body weight going around curves, the harness plants you down in the seat securely. The sub strap is connected to the forward seat mounts (per instructions) but I may change them...running the sub straps back...up through the joint between the bottom and back of the seat (so I'm sitting on the sub straps as they come-up between my legs to the cam lock).

A seat designed specifically for a harness is best but for all practical purposes this arrangement works fine IMHO.

Short-Throw

Albeit unlikely, yes to both.

Like I said, every situation is different. We can speculate all day with shoulda, coulda, and woulda. My point is that if we have the ability to make a situation safer, we should. There are no guarantees even with the safest setup, but at least the odds of getting hurt are reduced.

Simple things like window nets can prevent somebody from rolling out of a car should a harness give way.

Although not a Corvette, some may remember Joe Drey who died in an HPDE this past May.

From www.nasioc.com

I was just pointing out that to go the extra effort installing a harness without allowing the option for a HANS should be reconsidered.


I was never arguing and understand where you're coming from.

I don't think there is such a thing as over-reacting when it comes to safety. We all do this for a hobby.

PM sent.

Mike

GeorgeZNJ

www.eastcoastsupercharging.com seat conversion for C5 Z06's. I have and love em. Uses you existing seat, can still use the three point for street, and very, very comfortable. extremely better leather quality over stock.

Everett Ogilvie

Timely thread Mike - I am currently working with Gary (Hardbar) on a custom harness bar, harness, seats and rails for the Mosler. At Track Attack the stock seats and belts were not bad for what they are (they are a very good street high performance type of seat), but after riding in the other cars with full setups I think the control that comes with a race seat and harness will be much better. And just think, I will remove 10 - 15 more lbs by removing the stock seats!

fatbillybob

Yes change the subs to formula/climber style and sit on them. Your system will not work as is. Subs do not prevent submarining. Subs are there to control the lap belt so that lockup of the lap belt is faster to control your hips. Once hip control is attained then the shoulders can lock up on the lap belts. Best is still subs through a center seathole but formula style works ok. Remember tintop drivers are upright and formula cars are reclined. This makes a difference.

Short-Throw

Everett,

Those of us chasing you in the Mosler do not need it any faster!

Everett Ogilvie

Ha Ha! I wish! Total NEWB here, and can't afford to wreck the car, but hope to keep learning proper parts selection, setup, and driving from guys like you, Frank and Dean!

MungoZ06

I'm not a qualified advisor on this subject ... I will only say what I have done and *plan* to do.
I have a shop-weld-in 4 pt roll bar. I am still running stock seats and belts. I have an R3 head&neck restraint (works without harness) that I have yet to use - going to do some local road driving to get used to it and set the tethers; first track use at Watkins Glen mid-Aug.
I will put in one-piece race seats and harnesses when I have the $ (hopefully this winter). I will get seats and harnesses installed such that I can continue to use the stock 3-pts on the street. I will ensure that the installation has the proper strap attachment points and angles. (probably pay the $ to a qualified shop to do so)
As if I needed reinforcement, I recently read R Shreve's (performance driving institute) discussion of harnesses and description of what happens to the human body in a car in a crash. Very sobering read.

BTW ... this is one of three subjects that might warrant a "sticky" thread here; the other two are "selection and installation of racing seats" and "selection and installation of harnesses"

The Spark

I thought it strange that the C5 Z06 did not have the Sport Seat. If the Z06 was designed for racing then they are more likely to have harnesses. The hole in the Sport Seat was still too low for me anyway. The opening hit me pretty far below my shoulders.

I used a 6-point harness and standard seat. The shoulder belts wrapped around the headrest - not the sides of the seat. I also used the Brey-Krause lap belt brackets. The sub-belts clip where the lap belts do so that it is more like a parachute harness. You will not slide forward.

If the argument that an OEM seat will fold up using harnesses, wouldn't they also fold up with a stock seat belt?

I now have a race seat and 6 point harness. I haven't gotten to run them on the track yet.
I will put in a roll cage at some point. I wish I was closer to Phoenix Performance. Those rollcage specials are sure tempting. But fuel to get my car there and back

I'm no engineer, but I believe the Corvette structure is pretty strong. Comparing pushing on a roll bar and the B-pillar is not a good comparison. The B-pillar has bodywork around it so you are not pushing directly on the structure. I will agree that a rollbar/rollcage will give you more protection than just the structure.

GettReal

I'm lucky enough to have the sport seats in my car. I attach a 5pt harness from my rollbar through my sport seats and it holds me in place great. I actually push my seat back... put on my harness, tighten it all down... then use the power seat to pull me forward back into my driving position... I'm in there TIGHT!! I cant imagine submarining in my set up.. works great

MikeFleischer

Great topic, we should also have a discussion on Motorcycle helmet laws, its always fascinating to me to hear really well educated and successful people argue that they don't need helmets on a bike... Its hard for me to justify the small thrill of not wearing one over the risks of death or worse...

I was watching a special on the C6.R race cars youtube I think, they showed where they place a cross bar between the passenger and driver seat area. This was done to prevent a driver's body from moving into the passenger area during an accident and was added based on actual crash data. So even in a full out race car (even if that race car has air conditioning? What?) with all the right safety gear, you can see significant movement in an accident.

So why chance it with anything half baked? When I eventually put harnesses in my car, it will be with at least a half cage (rollover protection), and proper seats for the subs and shoulders.

That said, there is nothing better than a real race seat and well fit harnesses for the best car control and feel, and it does wonders to stave off driver fatigue also.

My C5 Z06 did have terrible seats compared to every other sports car I have owned. Too wide, no decent side bolstering. I would view this as a good opportunity to upgrade away from the stock seats! Kinda like the first time you really fry your brakes, time for a BBK

My $0.02
Mike