nwz51

I bought a low miles '08 with Z51 last week and went on a long back-roads trip this week to get used to it. One item that I couldn't quite get used to was the pedals on this car.

When trying to heel and toe, the brake pedal seemed so high and the throttle pivots in the middle which causes a lot of slack movement in the bottom of the throttle pedal. I never got to the point where I could consistently nail it down. This was on the road of course, and I wasn't always braking as hard as I possibly could - on the track, the difference between the pedal hights would not be as high with higher braking force.

I plan on prepping the car for HPDE days in anticipation for when the weather improves here in the northwest.

I sit with the seatback fairly upright and the steering wheel extended as far as it can go. In that position, my knees are bent just a bit - just enough to brace myself on the dead pedal. This position actually required me to raise my foot off the floor so that my heel would hit the throttle near the pivot point in the middle of the pedal - very uncomfortable.

I've searched the forum and found a throttle pedal by Elite Engineering. Has anyone had experience with this pedal? Or, is it possible to lower the brake pedal? Are there any other solutions?

Thanks

lkelliott

Your foot will be off the floor when you are doing heel and toe. Heel on the brake and toe on the throttle, you can't do it in a Vette with your foot on the floor. Practice this way and you will be able to balance your foot across both pedals as you need.

SouthernSon

I have the Elite pedal in my '03 Z06. I like it. There are 2 (more?) different types for the C5. One is not quite as articulated as the other. Pedal position does make all the difference in the world while learning. As you get comfortable with blipping the throttle at threshold braking, the position gets to be a little less of an issue, but for learning, you should start off with the pedal position more obliging.

Bill Hetzel

That would be uncomfortable. And heel on the brake and toe on the throttle can be done but is also doing it the hard way.
I've said this many times here, It's not hard to H&T in a C4,5,6. And it can be done in normal driving with stock pedals.

Trying to H&T with your heel pushing either the brake or gas is incorrect, possible but incorrect.

All you need to threshould brake the car is the 3/4 to 1 inch of the ball of your foot directly under your big toe. The throttle is blipped with ball of your foot directly under your little toe. You'll notice when doing this that your knee moves towards the shifter. Weither or not your heel is in the carpet will depend on your shoe size and seat position.

This is very easy to do.

City Goat

FWIW I have a hard time doing heel/toe on the street. I just don't brake hard enough in normal driving to get the pedal way down to blip the throttle...but at the track it's becoming no problem at all with practice.

I wouldn't worry too much about it...I also thought about getting the EE pedal but on the track I have no issues, which is where it really counts.

nwz51

What I meant to say was that I was raising my foot so high that the brake was under the arch of my foot.

It sounds like everyone gets used to it through practice. Thanks to all for the input.

The Spark

I have the Elite Heel-Toe pedal in my 99 and love it. I can brake with the ball of my foot and blip the throttle with the outside of my foot. I don't have to rotate my foot a lot - and I have narrow feet.

I try to heel toe in my 03 w/o the Elite pedal and I can't do it. It feels like the pedals are way far apart. I find myself hunting for the throttle with my foot. It is street only so braking is different.

I had a hard time H-T on the track at first but now it is almost second nature and I don't have to think about it as much.

Bill Hetzel

If your heel comes off the floor more than 1/2 inch, it's too much.

To move your foot from the gas to the brake, you rotate the top of your foot to the left. Your heel shouldn't move at all.

gkmccready

My 8EEE foot doesn't agree. I need to move my heel a little, and I can't reach the gas with my little toe, so I use the side of my foot. It's all easily doable though and H+T in the Corvette is no different to me than any other car I've driven.

I also find H+T is actually easier in a proper racing shoe than in my crosstrainers but a large part of that could be the fact that I only where them on track and on track things just gel a bit better due to higher concentration levels.

Bill Hetzel

Well, your 8EEE's would be perfect in an open wheel cockpit.
I don't use my little toe either and you're not really supposed to. It's the ball under the toe or the side of your foot just below the toe. So, you're one of the guys that's got it right.

If I lay one of my Simpsons up against my crosstrainers, you can see that the Simpsons and 3/4 inch narrower. So for some guys doing HPDE's crossstrainers may work better.
But I agree with you, I'd much rather be in the racing shoes.

Glad someone posted who's doing it right.

Bill Dearborn

The heel isn't involved at all. One thing to think about is how your leg actually works. You can wiggle your toes and move the toe end of your foot around quite easily including flexing the little toe side under the big toe side. However, you have to move your leg to move your heel. The leg muscles involved in moving your heel are not as accurate as the ones involved in moving your toes.

With thin soled shoes you can feel the pedals with the toes and ball of the foot so you can apply the proper pressure. I can blip the throttle by just flexing the little toe side to the right and down.

On all the C4s through C6s that I have driven the brake pedal drops down to the same level as the gas pedal on the first push. At this level the pedals are only 2 5/8 inches apart (left edge of gas to right edge of brake pedal) and perfectly aligned to do heel/toe as it is improperly called. My size 11D foot which measures 4 inches across at the ball of the foot (without shoes) fits the pedals well.

Bill

redtopz

Bill helped me with my heel/toe . I actually don't have to lift my heel off the floor at all to heel/toe. Just move the ball of my foot over to the brake so half of the ball of my foot is on the brake and roll my ankle a little to blip the throttle with the right side of my foot. Works well and easy to control that way . Its the timing and smoothness of the technique that I still need to work on, but you can practice on the street.

nwz51

The problem I have with my '08 is that the brake pedal is still over 2" higher than the throttle under hard braking. Admittedly, this was on the street and not threshold braking on the track. With this height difference, I think it would still be difficult to roll the side of my foot to the throttle. Is it possible to lower the brake pedal?

Bill Hetzel

It's cool that you're practicing on the street. Since you've only had the car a week or so and you were trying to use your heel before, I'd suggest trying this (the correct way) for a little while yet. I think the pedal heigth issue will slowly go away.

On the street, in my daily driver, the brake is roughly 1 1/2 in. higher under fairly hard braking. At the track the pedal does go a good bit lower. The pedal height bothered me a little when I first got the car compared to the racecar where the pedals were dead on.

It took a couple of week until I didn't notice it. After a month, I noticed that I was H&Ting without thinking about it. I probably H&T 80% of the time on the street and don't even realize that I'm doing it.

I'll bet that a month from now, you'll be pretty good at it.

GeminiZ06

Wow - lots of opinoins here. I agree with many here but not where some are stating some ways are wrong for blipping the throttle.

There are professional race car drivers (primarily of German and Asian descent) that use the toe on brake and the heel on throttle - but that is what is optimal for them on their cars. Its not wrong - it is what works for them. I have seen old pedal box videos of F1 drivers, Nascar, you name it and so have many of you. Would anyone here state that some of those F1 drivers did not know how to drive? I would think not. The heel clearly hitting the throttle - not the side of the foot.

When I first learned to heel-toe - it was on a Japanese car. There was no need to use the side of the foot - the heel allowed more precise control of braking FOR ME and the brake pedal position with respect to the throttle was optimized for such motion FOR ME. Yet - I could do the same with the side of the foot. But why would I choose one over the other? Its just me - not for all.

Now please understand this: the toe, if used to brake while blipping the throttle, is the pivot off of which the next motion shall occur. There is no disputing that fact. The brake is hit first, the brake is still in contact with foot - therefore the pivoting occurs at that point. The foot must rotate in some way while remaining on the pedal - anyone disagree? if the foot is moving while the toe remains - then there is a rotation that is occuring.

No one can argue with the fact that the side of the foot is closer to the toe. Therefore, moving the foot to make the side of the foot hit something as opposed to the heel will cause more of a response on the toe - period - The toe is more likely to move when manipulating the side of the foot. That is fact based on geometry alone - given all other variables are the same. It does not mean that the toe WILL move - just more likely.

The side of the foot is closer to the toes - therefore, attempting to rotate the foot to hit the throttle with the side of the foot will more likely have an effect on brake force than if using the point on the foot furthest away from the toe - just simple physics. More length to distribute the motion. However, after much practice, I am perfectly able to blip the throttle without causing any change to brake pedal force. On a Japanese car - the learning curve was a short drive. On the vette - it took about a week. I have since added the Elite pedal to my Z with a slight modification to improve the pedal pivot. Now, in hindsight - I know it is not needed - it just made it a shorter learning curve for me. It does not make a difference now - as I confirmed with a few drives in other vettes.

Now pedal placement comes in to play - since that is a variable. On the vette and cars like it - the pedals are not optimal for toe braking while heel blipping of throttle - using the side of the foot is MUCH easier.

But to say that using the heel on the throttle is wrong is absolutely, unequivocally wrong. Please identify an F1 driver that would state that and I will most certainly recant. Put me in an STi and I will use my heel. Put me in a vette and I will use the side of the foot. In the end - its to each their own. The better driver will adapt and adapt quickly - if needed.

Take a look at this video of a rally card river in an STi and please tell me what he is doing wrong and why. He is clearly using his heel.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iXu5_ty3Zs

There are penty more showing the use of the heel and others showing the side of foot. I would never state that one is wrong over the other.

Hell - if you can get the right blip, at the right time, without compromising brake force using your nose - then so be it - it is the right way for you. That is my point.

Here's more:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuoZeuSgEj4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBofM...eature=related

Like I stated - to each their own as long as it gets the job done.

blkz

I have a narrow foot and the Elite pedal made a difference. I've never measured the distance from brake to accelerator in the C5 and C6 but they do feel farther apart in the C6.

JohnD60

Not alot to add to what's already been said. I installed the Elite pedal and roll my foot to blip the throttle in the Corvette.

However, I also have an older Porsche (83 911). I use my heel to blip the throttle in this car (brake with the ball of my foot and rotate my heel over the gas pedal).

It's all your seating and pedal position. The Porsche pedals pivot from the bottom and you sit up higher while the Corvette pedals pivot from the top and you sit lower.

The Porsche's massive understeer always remindes me which car I'm in so I don't get them confused.....

John

JaGsC5

Exactly how I do it. Good job writing this!

Wayne O

For me, the pedal placement of the C6 is not conducive to what I consider a 'classic' heel/toe shift. As many others evidently do, I simply use/rotate my right foot. It took a while before I became comfortable doing this under hard braking though.

FWIW, here's a DIY C6 pedal modification I saved. This mod uses the wide Elite pedal(s) and incorporates shims to change the pedal placement. The writer claims it to be an improvement....

A fix: Heel & Toe braking update/Elite gas pedal

This is a new post on this subject because my original post a week ago got long on responses. Original post here: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/show... %26amp%3B+toe
I Just wanted to share a solution now with those of you who also have difficulity doing "Heel and Toe" braking because of the pedal geometry in the Manual 6 speed car.

Just to review, I started by replacing the stock gas pedal with the wider aluminum pedal by Elite Engineering. I still had trouble doing the traditional "heel & toe" braking manuever because of the stock pedal placement geometry in the C6. The gas pedal is mounted too low in relation to the brake pedal.

Thanks to John and everyone else who chimed in. John's solution was to add a metal spacer or shim on the back of the Elite pedal. This effectively raises the angle of the gas pedal by resting on the pedal mounting strut.

I made a 1/4 inch thick spacer of aluminum and JB welded it in place.
In addition, the Elite pedal has a lot (too much) lateral play when installed. Also, the spring is difficult to align when installing the pedal.
I found a solution to the play problem by making a plastic (nylon) spacer which rides against the mounting strut restricting movement side to side. A notch in the nylon also holds the spring in place against the pedal. A hole drilled in the spacer allows the mounting bolt to hold it all in place.

A dremel tool shapes the nylon easily and it fits tight against the aluminum spacer.

Net result: Easy mounting now! The mounting bolt slides right into place without the hassle of aligning the spring or using a mirror.
Much better angle for heel and toe braking now and 90% of excess play eliminated. The bottom of the gas pedal has been raised by the aluminum spacer so it more parallel to the brake pedal now. Therefore, sliding one's foot over from the brake pedal to the gas is easier now.

My son does heel & toe by rolling the ball of his foot onto the gas. He drove it and found it very easy now. I use the old method of heel to the gas, toes on the brake, and I too found it much easier now.
Viola!!

RoganR

Great read. I've done a few HPDE events in my old camaro, but could never get confortable with the Heel and Toe. I now see it was probably the setup. Will practice without using my heel on my Vette and hopefully have it down before the next event in a few weeks. Thanks guys!