First Time Trial at VIR
02-13-2009, 02:55 PM
#1
Advanced
Thread Starter
First Time Trial at VIR
Well I had my first TT with the Tarheel Sports Car Club last weekend. What a blast and much more intense than normal HPDE sessions. The gridding makes open air and track space abundant.
I certianly have areas I need to improve and I had David Farmer for an instructor this weekend which was great. He realized the areas I needed to "let the car go".
My biggest issue, and I was was wondering if anyone else had this, is the feel of the car at the limit. For example, following in a good group up the esses I ran several laps at 112 entry and 110 top and it felt the same as 102 a tthe bottom. I need more feedback.
If any of you have ever driven a 350z, yo uknow what I mean. You know exactly what the car is going to do. The vette is errily smooth.
My car is bone stock and I am running Kuhmo ecsta MX's with Carbo Tech 12 front and 10 back. My fastest time on full course is 2:20.0.
How do I get more feel? Or just push it until I feel it?
I certianly have areas I need to improve and I had David Farmer for an instructor this weekend which was great. He realized the areas I needed to "let the car go".
My biggest issue, and I was was wondering if anyone else had this, is the feel of the car at the limit. For example, following in a good group up the esses I ran several laps at 112 entry and 110 top and it felt the same as 102 a tthe bottom. I need more feedback.
If any of you have ever driven a 350z, yo uknow what I mean. You know exactly what the car is going to do. The vette is errily smooth.
My car is bone stock and I am running Kuhmo ecsta MX's with Carbo Tech 12 front and 10 back. My fastest time on full course is 2:20.0.
How do I get more feel? Or just push it until I feel it?
02-13-2009, 03:44 PM
#2
Race Director
Finding the limit on high speed corners/combinations is extremely difficult since the consequences are much more dire when you cross it. 112 on street tires is pretty darn fast, so don't be too hard on yourself.
In the S's, I can usually tell I've gone a bit to fast as I find it very difficult to hit my marks at turn 9, and getting back over to properly set up turn 10 becomes nearly impossible. When you find you can't hold your line, then you probably need to dial it back a bit.
Good work getting the times down. Keep working, eventually get some better tires, and you'll be doing 2:10's in no time!
In the S's, I can usually tell I've gone a bit to fast as I find it very difficult to hit my marks at turn 9, and getting back over to properly set up turn 10 becomes nearly impossible. When you find you can't hold your line, then you probably need to dial it back a bit.
Good work getting the times down. Keep working, eventually get some better tires, and you'll be doing 2:10's in no time!
02-13-2009, 03:50 PM
#3
Advanced
Thread Starter
Finding the limit on high speed corners/combinations is extremely difficult since the consequences are much more dire when you cross it. 112 on street tires is pretty darn fast, so don't be too hard on yourself.
In the S's, I can usually tell I've gone a bit to fast as I find it very difficult to hit my marks at turn 9, and getting back over to properly set up turn 10 becomes nearly impossible. When you find you can't hold your line, then you probably need to dial it back a bit.
Good work getting the times down. Keep working, eventually get some better tires, and you'll be doing 2:10's in no time!
In the S's, I can usually tell I've gone a bit to fast as I find it very difficult to hit my marks at turn 9, and getting back over to properly set up turn 10 becomes nearly impossible. When you find you can't hold your line, then you probably need to dial it back a bit.
Good work getting the times down. Keep working, eventually get some better tires, and you'll be doing 2:10's in no time!
I am having the tire conversation now. What would you recommend for my car?
02-13-2009, 04:07 PM
#4
Racer
Member Since: May 2008
Posts: 470
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
than needed. Rather than running all the way out on exit, nudge the
car away from the outside edge of the track on exit. Just a little.
If the car gets squirmy, widen the turn radius. If, on the other hand,
you get through the turn comfortably with a few feet of track to spare
then increase the speed a few mph next time around.
02-13-2009, 08:47 PM
#5
Vetteless
Member Since: Jul 2004
Location: Gallatin TN
Posts: 732
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
St. Jude Donor '09
Just a suggestion from my limited experience - go do some autocrosses with your car. That is the safest environment I know of to find the cars limits, and develop the feel that you need on a road course. It will give you confidence in yourself and your relationship with the car while training your hands, feet, and butt to react without you thinking about it.
Those car control skills will translate directly to the racetrack and you'll be more comfortable, more calm, and faster too.
Those car control skills will translate directly to the racetrack and you'll be more comfortable, more calm, and faster too.
02-15-2009, 07:36 PM
#6
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Apr 2004
Location: Stanfield NC
Posts: 792
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I was on track with you (Green C4) and thought you did very well. Your driving was smooth and controlled and you handled the car well. Push the limit slowly. Like david said, the consequences of stepping over the line can be costly and ugly. Do not try to make huge gains every time, just make small incremental improvements, stay smooth and your lap times will keep on improving.
02-15-2009, 08:57 PM
#7
Race Director
the consequences of a "shallow" line into turn 7..... Instead of following the Viper wide to the left, he straightlined into 7 and crested the "yump" while still turning.
Like I said, concentrate on running the correct, safe line, faster and faster. When you find yourself using the curbings excessively or tracking too far left before turn 10, you've gone too far.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTF5ZnSVoH8
Like I said, concentrate on running the correct, safe line, faster and faster. When you find yourself using the curbings excessively or tracking too far left before turn 10, you've gone too far.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTF5ZnSVoH8
Last edited by davidfarmer; 02-16-2009 at 08:04 AM.
02-15-2009, 11:05 PM
#8
Just a suggestion from my limited experience - go do some autocrosses with your car. That is the safest environment I know of to find the cars limits, and develop the feel that you need on a road course. It will give you confidence in yourself and your relationship with the car while training your hands, feet, and butt to react without you thinking about it.
Those car control skills will translate directly to the racetrack and you'll be more comfortable, more calm, and faster too.
Those car control skills will translate directly to the racetrack and you'll be more comfortable, more calm, and faster too.
Autocross a few times and you will learn what your car feels like at the edge and then over the edge at a safer manageable speed so you won't end up like the guy in David's video. It can translate to good feel and car control on track too.
02-16-2009, 08:02 AM
#9
Race Director
I'm not disagreeing with you guys, but a Corvette feels differently in a corner at 130mph than it does at 30mph in an autocross. At low speed you can achieve really high instantanious G's, while at high speed you need to be as smooth as possible to maximize the "area under the curve"....basically achieve more cornering grip for as long as possible by perfecting your trajectory.
Brandon knows what the edge feels like in his car, I think it's more about reaching that same point in places that you've seen people have bad accidents. It's more of a mental balancing act than actually learning where the edge is!
For what it's worth, in all the accidents I've seen (ie there is video available), accidents at turn 7-10 almost always involve the driver making a definitive mistake, NOT simply driving too fast. Concentrate on learning the safe line, and add speed bit by bit until your driving get messy!
Brandon knows what the edge feels like in his car, I think it's more about reaching that same point in places that you've seen people have bad accidents. It's more of a mental balancing act than actually learning where the edge is!
For what it's worth, in all the accidents I've seen (ie there is video available), accidents at turn 7-10 almost always involve the driver making a definitive mistake, NOT simply driving too fast. Concentrate on learning the safe line, and add speed bit by bit until your driving get messy!
02-16-2009, 09:26 AM
#10
Burning Brakes
Member Since: Dec 2007
Location: San Diego
Posts: 1,085
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brandon,
Clearly david thinks you are doing well, and it is VERY hard to push it in dangerous spots. One of these days it might end poorly. In the vette its all about "Feel" and being connected to the car. I HATED driving a "stock" c5 around the track because there was NO feel to it at all! I've driven 350z's, sti's, and other cars and loved them! Now Add a race seat and harnesses where you are strapped in and your butt can feel the movement of the car, you get closer. Add a more track oriented suspension and you get more feel (or so i think)... etc.
Bottom line though before you spend $texas on stuff is seat time. More seat time will help you determine what you should try on track next.
Past that I'd also recommend time on a skid pad. Yes, car control is different when you add 100mph, but not many people know what to do when the car gets out of sorts.. the pad will help with that.
Clearly david thinks you are doing well, and it is VERY hard to push it in dangerous spots. One of these days it might end poorly. In the vette its all about "Feel" and being connected to the car. I HATED driving a "stock" c5 around the track because there was NO feel to it at all! I've driven 350z's, sti's, and other cars and loved them! Now Add a race seat and harnesses where you are strapped in and your butt can feel the movement of the car, you get closer. Add a more track oriented suspension and you get more feel (or so i think)... etc.
Bottom line though before you spend $texas on stuff is seat time. More seat time will help you determine what you should try on track next.
Past that I'd also recommend time on a skid pad. Yes, car control is different when you add 100mph, but not many people know what to do when the car gets out of sorts.. the pad will help with that.
I'm not disagreeing with you guys, but a Corvette feels differently in a corner at 130mph than it does at 30mph in an autocross. At low speed you can achieve really high instantanious G's, while at high speed you need to be as smooth as possible to maximize the "area under the curve"....basically achieve more cornering grip for as long as possible by perfecting your trajectory.
Brandon knows what the edge feels like in his car, I think it's more about reaching that same point in places that you've seen people have bad accidents. It's more of a mental balancing act than actually learning where the edge is!
For what it's worth, in all the accidents I've seen (ie there is video available), accidents at turn 7-10 almost always involve the driver making a definitive mistake, NOT simply driving too fast. Concentrate on learning the safe line, and add speed bit by bit until your driving get messy!
Brandon knows what the edge feels like in his car, I think it's more about reaching that same point in places that you've seen people have bad accidents. It's more of a mental balancing act than actually learning where the edge is!
For what it's worth, in all the accidents I've seen (ie there is video available), accidents at turn 7-10 almost always involve the driver making a definitive mistake, NOT simply driving too fast. Concentrate on learning the safe line, and add speed bit by bit until your driving get messy!
02-16-2009, 09:42 AM
#11
Advanced
Thread Starter
Thank you for the comments. I appreciate the feedback and know that the car has more in it than I am giving. I plan on doing 12 events this year and know that experience is king. I will inch up the speed in areas that need help. The car is a little numb due to the smoothness.
As I said the car is stock except for pads, rollbar, harnesses etc. I want to know if tires shuld be my next upgrade. If so, what do you recommend? I have Kuhmo MX on the car now and they work great but a R compound is what I want to do.
Will my smoothness now translate into better times with R's without any track driving changes? I could easily put another set of Kuhmo's on the car.
As I said the car is stock except for pads, rollbar, harnesses etc. I want to know if tires shuld be my next upgrade. If so, what do you recommend? I have Kuhmo MX on the car now and they work great but a R compound is what I want to do.
Will my smoothness now translate into better times with R's without any track driving changes? I could easily put another set of Kuhmo's on the car.
02-16-2009, 12:36 PM
#12
Race Director
I suggested R tires since you are doing time trials......for DE's, I would concentrate on seat time as mentioned.
Unfortunately, this isn't my specialty. I use a variety of non-DOT tires, simply because I trailer and can get the tires cheap. You might want to search, or start a specific thread regarding DOT tires, especially while you continue to drive to events. I have no idea which tires are best for surviving the ride to/from the events and all of the track duty to boot!
Unfortunately, this isn't my specialty. I use a variety of non-DOT tires, simply because I trailer and can get the tires cheap. You might want to search, or start a specific thread regarding DOT tires, especially while you continue to drive to events. I have no idea which tires are best for surviving the ride to/from the events and all of the track duty to boot!
02-16-2009, 12:42 PM
#13
Drifting
Unless you're trailering your car or an extra set of wheels you don't want to run Kumho 710's, Hoosier R6 A6 or similar tires. They may be DOT but they aren't intended for highway driving, especially in wet conditions. Their soft compounds are also more likely to be damaged by anything that may be run over and they can't evacuate water. I haven't used them personally but tires with a 100 tread wear rating like the Toyo 888, RA1, Nitto 555RII, NT01 etc would give better performance than MXs and should be OK to drive to the track. They would also last longer and lower your tire budget compared to the 50 rated R compounds. I'll be using one of these tires, at least until I get a trailer and maybe longer.
02-16-2009, 01:23 PM
#15
Vetteless
Member Since: Jul 2004
Location: Gallatin TN
Posts: 732
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
St. Jude Donor '09
I'm not disagreeing with you guys, but a Corvette feels differently in a corner at 130mph than it does at 30mph in an autocross. At low speed you can achieve really high instantanious G's, while at high speed you need to be as smooth as possible to maximize the "area under the curve"....basically achieve more cornering grip for as long as possible by perfecting your trajectory.
Brandon knows what the edge feels like in his car, I think it's more about reaching that same point in places that you've seen people have bad accidents. It's more of a mental balancing act than actually learning where the edge is!
For what it's worth, in all the accidents I've seen (ie there is video available), accidents at turn 7-10 almost always involve the driver making a definitive mistake, NOT simply driving too fast. Concentrate on learning the safe line, and add speed bit by bit until your driving get messy!
Brandon knows what the edge feels like in his car, I think it's more about reaching that same point in places that you've seen people have bad accidents. It's more of a mental balancing act than actually learning where the edge is!
For what it's worth, in all the accidents I've seen (ie there is video available), accidents at turn 7-10 almost always involve the driver making a definitive mistake, NOT simply driving too fast. Concentrate on learning the safe line, and add speed bit by bit until your driving get messy!
Learning to dance with a bone stock C5Z in autocross is a great foundation for your skills - it's made it very easy for me to climb into a variety of other cars and feel them out very quickly - maybe because they communicate more!
To the OP, like has been said above - seat time, no matter what the venue, will be the absolute best way to get more comfortable with the car and find speed. For TT, you're going to have to run some R-Compounds to be competitive, and the right tire will depend on your towing/driving situation. The fastest tire out there right now is the Hoosier A6, followed by the Kumho V710. Neither is a good option to drive very far to a track though.