sgsvette

Cost nothing? Maybe if PLOWBOY Lee Arnold isn't around to take you out if you happen to be in front of him. You guys love to post about your races, but I don't see any posts about how Lee took me out at Homestead a couple of weeks ago and got himself a nice 6 month probation with SCCA. Hush hush is the word, don't let anyone find out about what your fearless leader did. Cost me almost 15K to repair my Corvette and I'll have to miss both the SARRC and ARRC thanks to Lee. You might consider sending him to a driving school!

L98Terror

So what happened?

0Vector Vette

Kenny,
Come on down and join us. Closer then Utah and way more cars to race.

bosco022

This was at a Florida region SCCA event, I was not there, and it was not one of our points races so I didn't write a story for our website about the race.

I just heard about the probation yesterday and that speaks for itself.

I know Lee has been trying to get a hold of Henry to talk.

Lee has been road racing a long time and has a history of running cleanly and competitively. Anybody racing 600-700 hp cars inches apart can make a mistake, we all know there is little room for error.


Henry, I am sorry that you got caught up in it and that your car so damaged. I hope you can get her back on the track soon.

Don Keefhardt

As mentioned, ST class rules are specified in the GCR.

SP (Super Production) is also defined in the GCR (9.1.11), as a regional-only class that is for cars that exceed normal prep levels. 9.1.11.

OPTIONAL REGIONAL-ONLY CLASSES

Super Production Class (SP) (Regional Class Only): Cars which exceed the
preparation limitations of the applicable Production or GT Specifications
but which meet the general regulations of Section 9 of the GCR for GT
category cars. This includes cars not listed in the GT or Production spec
pages, such as FIA homologated production cars.

That leaves an awful lot of open space to play. Regions and Series (such as SARRC, NARRC, etc) have divided SP into two different groups - over 2.5 litres and under 2.5 liters - to allow for safe grouping of those cars. The SCCA Southeast Division (SEDiv, organizer of SARRC events) has posted their take on these non-national class rules here:

http://www.sedivracing.org/2009SEDiv...ClassRules.pdf

Not in the GCR...ITE - or as it's known in SEDiv - "ITO" - is a class for cars built to some other sanctioning body's rules, but requires DOT race rubber. BMWCCA car / NASA Honda Challenge / old Firehawk cars, etc., but they must conform to SOMEBODY's rulebook.

Since I am privy to such things, there is no one named "Arnold" (either first name or last) on the weekly-updated SCCA "Suspensions & Probations" list as of 10/5/09...just got it in my email yesterday. Just saying. No, you can't have a copy.

And now you're all free to continue with your rants.

sgsvette

Going through turn 1 at HMS (high speed left hand turn) I got hit in the left rear quarter panel as I was almost through the turn. The rest is history, car nearly totaled.
I did receive a call from Lee today, accepting responsibility for his mistake and apologizing for the carnage. I admire someone that can admit to his mistakes and although it won't pay my repairs it does ease the anger.
Thanks for the call Lee.

BrianCunningham

0Vector Vette

Danny and Mike,
Checked into rules. You guys can run ITO, which is what they call ITE. You can run your cars as is in that class. It is the same run group as us so come on down, should be a blast.
Robert

exracer28

Ingle is a strong supporter of Corvette racing and has spent a ton of money and time working on T1 issues. He was one of the 1st to try the LS3 and has lead the charge to make it raceable.

I do not think of it as complaining as much as being a vocal leader and it might be a good thing for you to stay in the cheap seats.

FYI I am not on his crew and we are not even friends.

Pumba

I agree!. Tell the rule makers to delete the valve lift restriction AND the compression ratio restriction.

Just keep it simple !

L98Terror

You want it simple ST1 & ST2, SCCA's rules seem to favor those that want to spend big money to be at the edge of the rules.

JMO I could be totally off base

exracer28

I see it just the other way. NASA rules are hosed and aperar to be written toward someone's car. The SCCA rules are very clear and there is a formal process to ask for carification. I remember going to help someone at a NASA event and three tech folks all had different ideas of the rules. NASA might get there some day but what I have seen of the SE it is very mom and pop operation.

Make a set of rules without all the point BS and it might get easier. I do like the idea of power to weight but when you start adding base points, p=tire points, exhaust points and whatever else that can be added then it get out of control. Power/weight, spec DOT tires, remove all the ricer wing crap and lets go race.

wallyman424

thats just for PT (which IMHO is a bs ruleset)

ST/U is power/weight with a few adjustments for certain things. very straightforward.

L98Terror

Seriously, all the rules fit on one sheet of paper ST1 & 2.
Hp/lb and small adjust whether your over/ under 3200 lb and couple of adjustments for running full slicks and some exotic transmissions.

exracer28

I just looked again and the rules are 10 pages. The classification form is a one page.

Aerodynamic modifications are unrestricted

Sequential, Tiptronic-like, paddle shift/semi-automatic, and dog-ring/straight-cut gears (i.e. non-synchromesh) transmissions are permitted, but will be assessed via the adjusted” weight/power ratio formula regardless of whether they are OEM or not

Transmission: Dog-ring/Straight-cut gears (non-synchromesh) = -0.2
Sequential/Tiptronic-like/paddle shift/semi-automatic = -0.2

Tire and wheel size are unlimited, but non-DOT approved tires will be assessed via the “adjusted” weight/power ratio

Tires: Non-DOT approved tires = -0.75 (VRL & GAC Hoosiers see App. A)
Size 275 to 250 (or 10.5” to 9.6” for non-DOT approved) = +0.4
Size 245 or smaller (or less than 9.6” for non-DOT approved) = +0.8

If the scaled weight is used what is this table?

Competition Weight:
Equal to or Less than:
3200-2800lbs 2750-2350lbs 2300-1900lbs 1850-1450lbs
3200 lbs -0.05 2750 lbs -0.5 2300 lbs -0.95 1850 lbs -1.4
3150 lbs -0.1 2700 lbs -0.55 2250 lbs -1.0 1800 lbs -1.45
3100 lbs -0.15 2650 lbs -0.6 2200 lbs -1.05 1750 lbs -1.5
3050 lbs -0.2 2600 lbs -0.65 2150 lbs -1.1 1700 lbs -1.55
3000 lbs -0.25 2550 lbs -0.7 2100 lbs -1.15 1650 lbs -1.6
2950 lbs -0.3 2500 lbs -0.75 2050 lbs -1.2 1600 lbs -1.65
2900 lbs -0.35 2450 lbs -0.8 2000 lbs -1.25 1550 lbs -1.7
2850 lbs -0.4 2400 lbs -0.85 1950 lbs -1.3 1500 lbs -1.75
2800 lbs -0.45 2350 lbs -0.9 1900 lbs -1.35 1450 lbs -1.8

Equal to or Greater than:

3300-3500lbs 3550-3750lbs 3800-4000lbs 4050-4250lbs
3300 lbs +0.05 3550 lbs +0.35 3800 lbs +0.65 4050 lbs +0.9
3350 lbs +0.1 3600 lbs +0.4 3850 lbs +0.7 4100 lbs +0.95
3400 lbs +0.15 3650 lbs +0.45 3900 lbs +0.75 4150 lbs +1.0
3450 lbs +0.2 3700 lbs +0.55 3950 lbs +0.8 4200 lbs +1.05
3500 lbs +0.3 3750 lbs +0.6 4000 lbs +0.85 4250 lbs +1.1

Note: If between 3201 lbs and 3299 lbs, there is no modification factor.
Note: All vehicle weights will be measured to the tenth of a pound (xxxx.x), then
rounded off to the nearest pound for all calculations. Any weight ending in
“.5” (xxxx.5x) will be rounded up or down to the benefit of the competitor.

Now the line I like is:

Performance enhancing modifications are otherwise unlimited. Some kit cars and purpose-built tube-frame or monocoque racecars may be permitted to compete in ST1 and ST2 with the approval of the NASA National Super Touring Director as they present for competition

I think your option is spend all you want, no cost limit. $10k brakes, $50k engines. Where does it stop?

Now tell me again that ST2 is not equal to STO? Did you not say T1 racing with SCCA is higher cost? Not by the NASA rule book. Fix your rule book to control the modifications and hire a real tech staff and then you can compare the two groups. Look at BMW, PCA and PBOC rule books and you will not need a work sheet to guess the class.

i wanted to try NASA but after visiting a few events and looking closer to the rules and how sloppy the events were run I still have not joined NASA. I keep hoping that there will be internal improvements so I do have another group to race with.

Good luck because it could be so much better.

L98Terror

exracer28,

First question? Weight the chart comes into play when you car doesn't weight 3201-3300

Let's look at ST2, your base hp/lb is 8.7 : 1, now if your car weights in at 3423 (with driver) you get a .15 bonus for being heavy. So you now have a 8.55 : 1 ratio, asuming no crazy transmission and DOT tires (Hoosier A6 or R6 any size you like) your done. Even a caveman can do it.

Now at 3423 you can make 400 RWHP, now to verify that you are legal when you come off the track they weight you, if you are over 3423 you are good if under you are illegal. Now NASA Great Lake normally has a dyno on site so instead of tearing your engine down they run you acrossed the dyno and recalculate you hp/lb. That easy.
You will never leave with a car in pieces.

ST1 yes big $$$$, ST2 $$ but less than T1 IMO and your going just as fast, PTA Nice spot to be.

Don't want to spend $$$$ on a car run a close to stock C5 in PTA

That's because you are thinking like a SCCA racer you don't need a $50k engine to make 350 RWHP and a $50k engine will not give you much of an advantage. The thing is the engine gets old take weight out you don't need to rebuild every season or for runoffs.

ST1 & ST2 $10k brakes maybe but it will cost you less in the long run, I ran 21 events this year on one set of brake pads.

Now of couse in ST1 or ST2 someone may have a better handling car but you will never be out powered by choice. In ST2 making enough power to be at the 8.7 limit is not expensive a stock LS engine will do.

You would **** yourself if I told you how little I spent racing this year, one race weekend a month including a trip to Road Atlanta & Utah (Miller) it was less than 5 figures. (does not include beer money)

That's 9 race weekends all double or triples

Tell me any front running T1 or STO guy that can claim that. You can say I cut corners and I did but I won 19 of 21 events this year with no DNFs 2 National Championships & 2009 Great Lakes NASA Driver of the Year.

AU N EGL

Ken

My thought is and I may be wrong for ST2, GOOD brakes, Not huge endurance 6 pot brakes, and great suspension set up would be the two best mods for ST2.

L98Terror

Good Brakes first, safer and cost effective. My car came with decent brakes but every time I get advice they claim what I have isn't the correct set up, it works for me.

I have 4 pot brakes that take endurance pads and they last forever. (one set this year)

again I agree a great suspension you need the car under control so you can drive consistently, my suspension helped me most under braking.

Aero I'm on the fence with, my data isn't conclusive that it is helping that much, although it is slowing me down on the straights. In a race being out front is key and it's harder to pass in a corner than it is at the end of a straight.

mrc24x

I think it will.

L98Terror

Good point I never even listen to anouncements, I just look at the clock and show up when the schedule says to show up. Yeah it's crazy the first time but once you get the system down I never have any issues. I wouldn't show up for the first time Sat morning to race Sat and expect to make practice, unless you recruit me or Matt to help you which either of us would with open arms.