Turkish GP crash?
06-10-2010, 12:25 PM
#1
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
Turkish GP crash?
OK I've been waiting for someone to post on this subject, so if I've missed it I apologize, BUT......what about Vettle taking out Webber while they were running 1/2 at Turkey? Opinions?????
06-10-2010, 12:33 PM
#2
Instructor
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Yea totally pissed me off since I was routing for Webber.
However, even if they are in the same team they're still hardcore racers, team drivers change from year to year so I guess these things happend on a regular basis.
At the end of the day it's up to RedBull to control their drivers over the com's.
However, even if they are in the same team they're still hardcore racers, team drivers change from year to year so I guess these things happend on a regular basis.
At the end of the day it's up to RedBull to control their drivers over the com's.
06-10-2010, 12:43 PM
#3
Race Director
I enjoyed it, except that it gave Hamilton the lead. I LOVE watching big race teams make huge mistakes (even the Corvettes at Sebring). Money just can't always buy good decision...or even luck.
06-10-2010, 12:50 PM
#4
Le Mans Master
Vettel was way up alongside Webber. Webber turns down to the apex and frankly was very lucky to not finish his race right there.
The response has been strange: "Well, everyone knows Webber won't let you past, so the wreck was Vettel's fault."
And then everyone wonders why F1 has so little passing on track.
Got nothing against Webber, but that was completely his fault. McLaren drivers showed how to do it a few laps later.
Have a good one,
Mike
The response has been strange: "Well, everyone knows Webber won't let you past, so the wreck was Vettel's fault."
And then everyone wonders why F1 has so little passing on track.
Got nothing against Webber, but that was completely his fault. McLaren drivers showed how to do it a few laps later.
Have a good one,
Mike
06-10-2010, 01:20 PM
#5
Melting Slicks
There's an old saying about: "Those who don't study history are doomed to repeat it." I guess Weber and Vettel never heard of Prost and Senna. HA!
06-10-2010, 01:30 PM
#6
Race Director
I don't know.....looks to me like Webber held his (albeit defensive) line, and Vettel pushed outward into him. I'm not a huge fan of either, but I don't see Webber turning in at all. There is an in-car shot from Webbers car on youtube, and his hands stay perfectly straight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JOw5...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JOw5...eature=related
06-10-2010, 01:48 PM
#7
Le Mans Master
Webber's car was going in a straight line, but that line was moving to the left side of the track. Vettel was along side, then ahead, his left wheels are on the white line, and when HE goes straight (because there's nothing but grass to the left), Webber continues his left drift even though the passing car is in the lead by half a car length.
Vettel *couldn't* go further to the left. Regardless of whether Vettel would have made the corner or not, Webber should have moved right to avoid a collision.
Just because you start a defensive line doesn't mean you have the right to continue on it into disaster (which this almost was for Webber).
Enjoying the debate!
Mike
Vettel *couldn't* go further to the left. Regardless of whether Vettel would have made the corner or not, Webber should have moved right to avoid a collision.
Just because you start a defensive line doesn't mean you have the right to continue on it into disaster (which this almost was for Webber).
Enjoying the debate!
Mike
06-10-2010, 02:04 PM
#8
Team Owner
There was another thread about it so you can view more opinions on it if you search it up.
06-10-2010, 02:24 PM
#9
Safety Car
Webber's car was going in a straight line, but that line was moving to the left side of the track. Vettel was along side, then ahead, his left wheels are on the white line, and when HE goes straight (because there's nothing but grass to the left), Webber continues his left drift even though the passing car is in the lead by half a car length.
Vettel *couldn't* go further to the left. Regardless of whether Vettel would have made the corner or not, Webber should have moved right to avoid a collision.
Just because you start a defensive line doesn't mean you have the right to continue on it into disaster (which this almost was for Webber).
Enjoying the debate!
Mike
Vettel *couldn't* go further to the left. Regardless of whether Vettel would have made the corner or not, Webber should have moved right to avoid a collision.
Just because you start a defensive line doesn't mean you have the right to continue on it into disaster (which this almost was for Webber).
Enjoying the debate!
Mike
Vettel THOUGHT he was clear, and turned right to get a better line on the corner. Webber was also going to the right to get a better line through the corner. You can clearly see the gap between Vettel's left tires and the white line increase in these shots.
Webber left him JUST enough room on the inside without running him into the grass. For Vettel to assume Webber was just going to give the lead up without a fight was a little naive...Webber was leading in points AND leading the race.
Should be interesting to see the interviews and seeing them together this weekend in Montreal...body language will tell a lot about how they are getting along NOW.
Would have been interesting to be the proverbial fly-on-the-wall in the Red Bull debrief...I'll bet they were told their fortune by the management. I think I'd have made Vettel pony up the cost to fix the car...I think that bill would make a HUGE impression on them both (even though I'm sure they have PLENTY in the bank).
06-10-2010, 07:51 PM
#11
Racer
Looks to me like Vettel is responsible for the incident, Vettel turned into him before he was clear. To blame Webber is to say he should have backed off and let Vettel have the line. Not very likely when he was fighting for the win and championship.
06-10-2010, 10:22 PM
#12
Safety Car
That's EXACTLY what I saw as well....
06-11-2010, 12:56 AM
#13
Webber's car was going in a straight line, but that line was moving to the left side of the track. Vettel was along side, then ahead, his left wheels are on the white line, and when HE goes straight (because there's nothing but grass to the left), Webber continues his left drift even though the passing car is in the lead by half a car length.
Vettel *couldn't* go further to the left. Regardless of whether Vettel would have made the corner or not, Webber should have moved right to avoid a collision.
Just because you start a defensive line doesn't mean you have the right to continue on it into disaster (which this almost was for Webber).
Enjoying the debate!
Mike
Vettel *couldn't* go further to the left. Regardless of whether Vettel would have made the corner or not, Webber should have moved right to avoid a collision.
Just because you start a defensive line doesn't mean you have the right to continue on it into disaster (which this almost was for Webber).
Enjoying the debate!
Mike
I'm starting to miss Raikonnen.
06-11-2010, 10:01 AM
#15
Vettel had the faster car (due to fuel conservation map on Webber's chassis) and had the overtake, but Webber held a very defensive line and as a result Vettel turned into Webber in an attempt to setup the next corner and the crash resulted.
If the overtake was by any other car than your teammate, I agree 100% with Webber's position, but when you are talking about your teammate overtaking you, you should race aggressively, but perserve the team championship points over your own championship points.
Motorsports are a team sport, and it seems many (especially in F1) have forgotten this fact.
06-11-2010, 01:08 PM
#16
Melting Slicks
Based on all the info Ive seen, and its quite a bit, Webber is 90% at fault.
I like both drivers, but Webber isnt too far behind Damon Hill, the crash master if you try to pass.
I like both drivers, but Webber isnt too far behind Damon Hill, the crash master if you try to pass.
06-11-2010, 02:24 PM
#17
Burning Brakes
If you watch a replay on Youtube, from the moment Vettel's car starts to move to the right until they make contact, takes approximately .2 seconds (I had a hard time timing it with my stopwatch).
06-11-2010, 03:47 PM
#18
Safety Car
Especially when you see stop-motion images like those above that clearly show Vettel turning into Webber.
But if you won't believe your eyes, how about the opinions of other RACERS following them and seeing the replay footage after the race?
Lewis Hamilton
"Where should Mark have gone?" Lewis Hamilton - who had a box-seat view of the incident that unfolded in front of him - told German television Sky.
"I think the gap he left him was big enough."
"I think the gap he left him was big enough."
"Mark didn't move at all. For me, it was clearly Sebastian's fault."
"All my racing colleagues are in agreement that it was Vettel's fault."
Niki Lauda said the 22-year-old had been "much too aggressive".
Tim Goss (McLaren Engineer)
"I've only read that neither driver says they are to blame. There is some good footage of the incident, and you just have to look at it and make your own mind up. But I think Vettel had enough room on the track."
Noble Poll Results
Vettel to blame: 79.45%. Webber to blame: 8.8%. Racing incident: 11.75%
Source
Even Button has now made some comments:
Jenson Button says he was bemused to see the Red Bull collision unfolding in front of him during the Turkish Grand Prix, and could not understand why Sebastian Vettel moved as he did...
Obviously if there's a car there, you can't move across.
I think Sebastian just expected Mark to move across, I don't know what he was thinking really, but if you see a car alongside you, you move and he doesn't, you're going to crash - it's inevitable.
So I'm guessing he expected Mark to move across but I don't see why he would expect that.
Obviously if there's a car there, you can't move across.
I think Sebastian just expected Mark to move across, I don't know what he was thinking really, but if you see a car alongside you, you move and he doesn't, you're going to crash - it's inevitable.
So I'm guessing he expected Mark to move across but I don't see why he would expect that.
So, you see the F1 DRIVERS who do this for a living even see it as Vettels fault, and these guys should know. Finally, damning statements coming out from fellow racers against Vettels unwise and brash move against his own team mate...Alex Wurtz's statement was the most interesting...
"All my racing colleagues are in agreement that it was Vettel's fault."
AND, last but not least...Red Bull accepts Webber not to blame
This stance is in contrast to comments made by Marko immediately after the race, where he wholly blamed Webber. That statement prompted furor from fans and the media, especially because it was Vettel who had turned right into Webber's car as he tried to overtake him.
"Mark held the inside line and adopted a defensive position, which he is entitled to do. When Sebastian was three quarters of the way past, he moved to the right.
"As Sebastian moved to the right, Mark held his position and the ensuing result was contact that resulted in Sebastian retiring, Mark damaging the front-end of his car and the team losing a one two finish. Ultimately both drivers should have given each other more room."
"As Sebastian moved to the right, Mark held his position and the ensuing result was contact that resulted in Sebastian retiring, Mark damaging the front-end of his car and the team losing a one two finish. Ultimately both drivers should have given each other more room."
Full stop...
Last edited by 1991Z07; 06-11-2010 at 05:22 PM.
06-11-2010, 05:26 PM
#19
Safety Car
I disagree 100% when you are talking about racing your TEAMMATE
Vettel had the faster car (due to fuel conservation map on Webber's chassis) and had the overtake, but Webber held a very defensive line and as a result Vettel turned into Webber in an attempt to setup the next corner and the crash resulted.
If the overtake was by any other car than your teammate, I agree 100% with Webber's position, but when you are talking about your teammate overtaking you, you should race aggressively, but perserve the team championship points over your own championship points.
Motorsports are a team sport, and it seems many (especially in F1) have forgotten this fact.
Vettel had the faster car (due to fuel conservation map on Webber's chassis) and had the overtake, but Webber held a very defensive line and as a result Vettel turned into Webber in an attempt to setup the next corner and the crash resulted.
If the overtake was by any other car than your teammate, I agree 100% with Webber's position, but when you are talking about your teammate overtaking you, you should race aggressively, but perserve the team championship points over your own championship points.
Motorsports are a team sport, and it seems many (especially in F1) have forgotten this fact.
06-11-2010, 07:09 PM
#20
Le Mans Master
Thread Starter
You have got to be kidding. Vettel has been fast, but VERY inconsistent all year. As Webber has been beating Vettle over the last few races...Vettel has been making excessively risky / irrational gambles that have not been paying off. If I remember correctly Webber was the pole winner and was the leader for the entire race and the gap between second and third was HUGE. There was no reason for Vettel to take such a large risk so close to the end of the race. He not only damaged his, and Webbers, points position, He did a tremendous amount of damage to the teams points for the constructors trophy.