Looking for advice from those who know
06-25-2010, 08:43 PM
#1
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Looking for advice from those who know
Did i little searching in this forum and didn't see much. I need to decide on a clutch but I'm just not getting a good handle on what's out there and what is right for me. My car is a 2001 Z06 that's mostly stock. Dynoed 350whp/350tq. I think I want to buy a clutch package that is somewhat overkill so I don't ever have to worry about this sticking clutch pedal 
ever again. I drive the car on the street and I drive hard in an advanced group at track days but on street tires for now. I know I'll also be installing a new slave cylinder and a remote bleeder. The lighter wieght of an aluminum flywheel sounds good, but I've never driven one. So what should I be looking at? Is the aluminum flywheel a good idea or not? Thanks in advance. 
ever again. I drive the car on the street and I drive hard in an advanced group at track days but on street tires for now. I know I'll also be installing a new slave cylinder and a remote bleeder. The lighter wieght of an aluminum flywheel sounds good, but I've never driven one. So what should I be looking at? Is the aluminum flywheel a good idea or not? Thanks in advance.
06-26-2010, 12:11 AM
#2
Le Mans Master
At stock or near stock power, if you're not drag racing, why would you need a performance clutch. Would it just be for peace of mind, or have you driven thru or roasted a clutch before on the RR track??
Ron
Ron
06-26-2010, 12:30 AM
#3
Safety Car
I have the Spec 3+ with 02Z06 with 462 rwhp. Works great on track and is tolerable for dd. No issues with pedal or slippage. My car will lay rubbler in first 3 gears. However, I did not get the al flywheel. I wish I had, but installer said I would not like for dd, but how would I know? Once you ride with someone with one and you see how easy it is to rev match for downshifting, it might be worth the extra trouble on the street. HTH.
06-26-2010, 01:07 AM
#4
Team Owner
Thread Starter
My car has 142,000 miles on it with the original clutch. And no, I have never driven through the clutch under any circumstances. It bites great. And it drives around town perfect right now. But the problem has gotten soo bad that all it takes is one trip to 6000rpms and the clutch pedal is either on the floor or hard as a rock and won't disengage the clutch. My last track day was run in one gear. I couldn't shift at all. I've already changed the master cylinder and kept my fluid clear with SRF no less. The slave cylinder must be junk or the pressure plate is allowing slippage at high RPM. Either way, it has to come apart.
06-26-2010, 01:09 AM
#5
Team Owner
Thread Starter
I have the Spec 3+ with 02Z06 with 462 rwhp. Works great on track and is tolerable for dd. No issues with pedal or slippage. My car will lay rubbler in first 3 gears. However, I did not get the al flywheel. I wish I had, but installer said I would not like for dd, but how would I know? Once you ride with someone with one and you see how easy it is to rev match for downshifting, it might be worth the extra trouble on the street. HTH.
Last edited by ptindall; 06-26-2010 at 01:14 AM.
06-26-2010, 04:16 AM
#6
Safety Car
Isn't the pedal problem all from the hydraulics and something about the clutch dust landing on the slave seals? I don't think an aftermarket clutch is going to solve that is it? Best you get is a remote bleeder so you can keep the fluid fresh(er)?
06-26-2010, 07:42 AM
#8
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I just installed the Al plate and Spec 2 clutch. I then had to install the Tick clutch master in order to engage 1st and reverse. I like the setup. It engages AT THE FLOOR now without any pedal travel (sorta) and the clutch is stiff but sweet. Of course, with the remote bleeder line on the slave cylinder I expect trouble free operation for a while (fingers crossed). For a DD it is fine, just more pedal force required. Operation is smooth with no chatter or hesitation but does engage quickly. On the track the operation is quick and more natural with engagement at the floor.
Spec is having/and resolving some issues for their C6 applications but I believe the C5 equipment is pretty much fully vetted (
).
Spec is having/and resolving some issues for their C6 applications but I believe the C5 equipment is pretty much fully vetted (
).
06-26-2010, 08:06 AM
#9
The "pedal on the floor" is most likely due to dirty fluid. If the fluid in your reservoir is not absolutely clear, then it is dirty. Suck it out, replace, cycle the clutch pedal 40-ish times, repeat until clear.For maintenance, I just change the fluid in the reservoir as part of my track prep. I have the same parts on my car that exhibited the problems...three years ago.
Hope that helps.
06-26-2010, 08:37 AM
#10
Race Director
I must agree that the pedal problem....in a dozen or so cars, I've only had one do it, and removing the "helper" spring under the dash and swapping fluid took care of it.
That being said, GM put a much stronger clutch in the 02'-up z06 than your 01'. I broke the stock 01' clutch during a World Challenge race (car was still pretty stock then), and GM sent it back to Luk and sent me the knew design. If you car still has the 01' clutch, just getting a new GM clutch would be an improvement.
That being said, GM put a much stronger clutch in the 02'-up z06 than your 01'. I broke the stock 01' clutch during a World Challenge race (car was still pretty stock then), and GM sent it back to Luk and sent me the knew design. If you car still has the 01' clutch, just getting a new GM clutch would be an improvement.
06-26-2010, 10:10 AM
#12
Melting Slicks
I've had a few different clutches in my C5Z, so I have a little experience.
When I bought it the car was doing around 440RWHP and had a Fidanza light-weight flywheel and a Cartek "Stage VII" clutch in it (their staging is pretty funny, best I can tell at the time that was the only clutch they offered). The setup held well for about 10-15k miles (I don't recall exactly) with a LOT of AutoXs (not so hard on a clutch), a few 1/4mi passes (about a dozen), a handful of HPDEs, and hard street miles. It was always a tricky clutch setup to get a really smooth start with when just puttering around town though (the clutch was pretty grabby, and the light-weight flywheel didn't help).
I started having the pedal stick, and other issues so I took the car apart and got a used LS7 setup from a friend. Once I got the car torn down it was pretty apparent that it was a slave/throwout-bearing failure, not really a clutch issue but because I was unsure I put the LS7 in anyway.
The LS7 setup (with the factory fly that you have to use, AFAIK) was a lot heavier than the Fidanza/Cartek setup. The car re-dynoed 420ish RWHP. It's hard to say all that loss was due to the clutch package though. The motor had been beaten hard (though most LSXs tend to loosen up and dyno better w/ some miles), I had switched from 5-30 to 15-50 oil (that certainly robbed some) and I think I might have been on a heavier wheel/tire.
However, the LS7 clutch drove beautifully so it was worth it. It was smooth as silk, very light, easy to drive smoothly on the street and really made the car more enjoyable on the roads. It got a few AutoXs and track days and never gave me issue.
When we started the new motor build (with a 600+ RWHP goal, which we attained) we decided not to chance it with the LS7 setup (though some C6Z guys have gotten away with it at those numbers). I really wanted to do the "LS9X" setup but it still looks like there is no plan to adapt it to C5s. I ended up w/ a RAM twin-disc which holds the power just fine. It drives alright, but with the big cam in the car now and the somewhat grabby clutch it's much harder to be smooth when street driving than the LS7 setup, but probably better than the Fidanza/Cartek.
All that being said, at your power level, unless you're trying to go as light as possible and eek out every last RWHP I'd do the LS7 setup (w/ new hydraulics for good measure) in a heartbeat. It'll laugh at the power you're making (around a 100 RWHP less than a stock C6Z), drive like stock, and it's dirt cheap.
Oh, and while it's getting installed MAKE SURE YOU PUT IN A REMOTE BLEEDER, YOU'LL BE KICKING YOURSELF IF YOU DON'T
-TJ
When I bought it the car was doing around 440RWHP and had a Fidanza light-weight flywheel and a Cartek "Stage VII" clutch in it (their staging is pretty funny, best I can tell at the time that was the only clutch they offered). The setup held well for about 10-15k miles (I don't recall exactly) with a LOT of AutoXs (not so hard on a clutch), a few 1/4mi passes (about a dozen), a handful of HPDEs, and hard street miles. It was always a tricky clutch setup to get a really smooth start with when just puttering around town though (the clutch was pretty grabby, and the light-weight flywheel didn't help).
I started having the pedal stick, and other issues so I took the car apart and got a used LS7 setup from a friend. Once I got the car torn down it was pretty apparent that it was a slave/throwout-bearing failure, not really a clutch issue but because I was unsure I put the LS7 in anyway.
The LS7 setup (with the factory fly that you have to use, AFAIK) was a lot heavier than the Fidanza/Cartek setup. The car re-dynoed 420ish RWHP. It's hard to say all that loss was due to the clutch package though. The motor had been beaten hard (though most LSXs tend to loosen up and dyno better w/ some miles), I had switched from 5-30 to 15-50 oil (that certainly robbed some) and I think I might have been on a heavier wheel/tire.
However, the LS7 clutch drove beautifully so it was worth it. It was smooth as silk, very light, easy to drive smoothly on the street and really made the car more enjoyable on the roads. It got a few AutoXs and track days and never gave me issue.
When we started the new motor build (with a 600+ RWHP goal, which we attained) we decided not to chance it with the LS7 setup (though some C6Z guys have gotten away with it at those numbers). I really wanted to do the "LS9X" setup but it still looks like there is no plan to adapt it to C5s. I ended up w/ a RAM twin-disc which holds the power just fine. It drives alright, but with the big cam in the car now and the somewhat grabby clutch it's much harder to be smooth when street driving than the LS7 setup, but probably better than the Fidanza/Cartek.
All that being said, at your power level, unless you're trying to go as light as possible and eek out every last RWHP I'd do the LS7 setup (w/ new hydraulics for good measure) in a heartbeat. It'll laugh at the power you're making (around a 100 RWHP less than a stock C6Z), drive like stock, and it's dirt cheap.
Oh, and while it's getting installed MAKE SURE YOU PUT IN A REMOTE BLEEDER, YOU'LL BE KICKING YOURSELF IF YOU DON'T
-TJ
06-26-2010, 11:07 AM
#13
Le Mans Master
If I put all stock components back into it, I would expect the pedal problem to arise again sooner or later. Why wouldn't it? It seems to for just about everybody. So yeah, peace of mind and also the possibility to add a little power in the future if I choose. Not that I have plans to do so.
My car has 142,000 miles on it with the original clutch. And no, I have never driven through the clutch under any circumstances. It bites great. And it drives around town perfect right now. But the problem has gotten soo bad that all it takes is one trip to 6000rpms and the clutch pedal is either on the floor or hard as a rock and won't disengage the clutch. My last track day was run in one gear. I couldn't shift at all. I've already changed the master cylinder and kept my fluid clear with SRF no less. The slave cylinder must be junk or the pressure plate is allowing slippage at high RPM. Either way, it has to come apart.
My car has 142,000 miles on it with the original clutch. And no, I have never driven through the clutch under any circumstances. It bites great. And it drives around town perfect right now. But the problem has gotten soo bad that all it takes is one trip to 6000rpms and the clutch pedal is either on the floor or hard as a rock and won't disengage the clutch. My last track day was run in one gear. I couldn't shift at all. I've already changed the master cylinder and kept my fluid clear with SRF no less. The slave cylinder must be junk or the pressure plate is allowing slippage at high RPM. Either way, it has to come apart.
Sounds like a new clutch is in order absolutely! Yeah, while you're at it, a performance clutch makes perfect sense at this point! I had an RPS clutch that I drag raced on and as a partial DD & it was near stock in feel, just slightly stiffer. 6200 rpm launches didn't affect it. NO chatter either.
Road raced on the stock clutch without issue.
Good luck in your decision!
Ron
06-26-2010, 11:12 AM
#14
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I had issues with a Centerforce Dual-friction clutch...wouldn't fully dis-engage at high rpms...and fixed that problem with the Tick master. That only lasted a little while and then same problem.
Switched to the McLeod Twin...and it's beautiful. Had my first track day yesterday at Monticello and had effortless +6,500rpm shifts. The pedal effort with the twin disk is also very light compared to the Centerforce.
Last dyno had me at 477rwhp on my H/C LS6...I'm expecting this clutch to last me for a while.
Be good,
TomK
Switched to the McLeod Twin...and it's beautiful. Had my first track day yesterday at Monticello and had effortless +6,500rpm shifts. The pedal effort with the twin disk is also very light compared to the Centerforce.
Last dyno had me at 477rwhp on my H/C LS6...I'm expecting this clutch to last me for a while.
Be good,
TomK
06-26-2010, 11:24 AM
#15
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Sounds like the slave cylinder is the issue. The stock ZO6 clutch is actually quite good. Aluminum flywheel allows the engine to spool up faster. If you have the high performace clutch and aluminum flywheel, you have to rev a little higher than normal to start from a standing start to avoid bucking or stalling.
I would go stock clutch, aluminum flywheel, remote bleeder, and a new slave cylinder.
Bob
I would go stock clutch, aluminum flywheel, remote bleeder, and a new slave cylinder.
Bob
06-26-2010, 11:29 AM
#16
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I'll add my two cents and experience.
As stated already, the sticking pedal "problem" is rarely related to the clutch/pressure plate assembly. It is a hydraulic issue. Temperature and dirty fluid/clutch dust eating at the seals. Flush the fluid 4 times a year and use DOT 4 fluid. I don't have the bleeder but if you want to spend the money it's probably worth it. I just turkey baster the fluid out of the tank, wipe with a clean papaer towel, refill, pump the clutch 40 times, suck the fluid out, do this 3 times and refill with fresh fluid. When you are doing the cycling part you dont have to fill it full, just enough to cover the hole and keep it from getting air in. (This method also saves on leg work at the gym).
I run a SPEC Stage 1 clutch, Aluminum pressure plate and a Fidenza Aluminum flywheel. If I bought again I would get the SPEC Aluminum flywheel with the package. The reason I didn't was because I got a killer deal on a used Fidenza with a new ring.
I drove this on the street four 4 years (30k miles) and on the track(20k) miles. For the last year my car is now full time track only car.
I still have the same package and it is working great.
This package saves about 24lbs or 26lbs of rotating weight if I remember correctly. When you first use it you can really tell the difference. Revs much faster which also means much faster acceleration. It does take a bit of getting used to pulling out at first but after a week you will have it down pat. If you start too slow it will chatter, no big deal, just push the clutch in and slip it a bit more and go.
It used to be with the stock setup you could all but let out the clutch from idle and a very small amount of gas to get going. Now I need about 1200 rpm and about a second or less of slipping the clutch. Like I said, after you do it for a week (or less if you drive in city traffic) it will be second nature and no big deal.
I have beat this clutch for almost 5 years now and it has always been great. Both times after my "incidents" at WG we had to use a dolly to get the car on the trailer and when we got done there was smoke rolling out of the clutch and it still works fine. Not a recommended test but at the time I didn't care, I just wanted to get the car loaded and out of there!
This setup is less than $950. Whenever I replace this, I will use the SPEC MiniTwin since it saves even more weight but it is also about $1500
Hope this helps
OH, one other thing, The installer can make a HUGE difference on how your clutch experience goes! Go to someone you trust and you know will stand behind what they did and has done many successful C5 clutch installs. Most people's bad experiences with a clutch are not because of the actual clutch but because it wasn't installed properly!
As stated already, the sticking pedal "problem" is rarely related to the clutch/pressure plate assembly. It is a hydraulic issue.
Temperature and dirty fluid/clutch dust eating at the seals. Flush the fluid 4 times a year and use DOT 4 fluid. I don't have the bleeder but if you want to spend the money it's probably worth it. I just turkey baster the fluid out of the tank, wipe with a clean papaer towel, refill, pump the clutch 40 times, suck the fluid out, do this 3 times and refill with fresh fluid. When you are doing the cycling part you dont have to fill it full, just enough to cover the hole and keep it from getting air in. (This method also saves on leg work at the gym).I run a SPEC Stage 1 clutch, Aluminum pressure plate and a Fidenza Aluminum flywheel. If I bought again I would get the SPEC Aluminum flywheel with the package. The reason I didn't was because I got a killer deal on a used Fidenza with a new ring.
I drove this on the street four 4 years (30k miles) and on the track(20k) miles. For the last year my car is now full time track only car.
I still have the same package and it is working great.
This package saves about 24lbs or 26lbs of rotating weight if I remember correctly. When you first use it you can really tell the difference. Revs much faster which also means much faster acceleration. It does take a bit of getting used to pulling out at first but after a week you will have it down pat. If you start too slow it will chatter, no big deal, just push the clutch in and slip it a bit more and go.
It used to be with the stock setup you could all but let out the clutch from idle and a very small amount of gas to get going. Now I need about 1200 rpm and about a second or less of slipping the clutch. Like I said, after you do it for a week (or less if you drive in city traffic) it will be second nature and no big deal.
I have beat this clutch for almost 5 years now and it has always been great. Both times after my "incidents" at WG we had to use a dolly to get the car on the trailer and when we got done there was smoke rolling out of the clutch and it still works fine. Not a recommended test but at the time I didn't care, I just wanted to get the car loaded and out of there!
This setup is less than $950. Whenever I replace this, I will use the SPEC MiniTwin since it saves even more weight but it is also about $1500
Hope this helps
OH, one other thing, The installer can make a HUGE difference on how your clutch experience goes! Go to someone you trust and you know will stand behind what they did and has done many successful C5 clutch installs. Most people's bad experiences with a clutch are not because of the actual clutch but because it wasn't installed properly!
Last edited by geerookie; 06-26-2010 at 11:41 AM. Reason: Suck at Spelling
06-26-2010, 11:37 AM
#17
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I had issues with a Centerforce Dual-friction clutch...wouldn't fully dis-engage at high rpms...and fixed that problem with the Tick master. That only lasted a little while and then same problem.
Switched to the McLeod Twin...and it's beautiful. Had my first track day yesterday at Monticello and had effortless +6,500rpm shifts. The pedal effort with the twin disk is also very light compared to the Centerforce.
Last dyno had me at 477rwhp on my H/C LS6...I'm expecting this clutch to last me for a while.
Be good,
TomK
Switched to the McLeod Twin...and it's beautiful. Had my first track day yesterday at Monticello and had effortless +6,500rpm shifts. The pedal effort with the twin disk is also very light compared to the Centerforce.
Last dyno had me at 477rwhp on my H/C LS6...I'm expecting this clutch to last me for a while.
Be good,
TomK
It was good to see you yesterday! That clutch must have made a huge difference....Just before I passed you
I followed you for a bit and it looked like you had learned to drive
Yesterday was a blast! That track is a ton of fun and very challenging.
Plus the weather was awesome
To no more clutch issues!Hope to see you in July at Pocono, let me know if I can help you with anything.
Last edited by geerookie; 06-26-2010 at 11:41 AM.
06-26-2010, 02:15 PM
#18
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Hey Tom,
It was good to see you yesterday! That clutch must have made a huge difference....Just before I passed you I followed you for a bit and it looked like you had learned to drive
Yesterday was a blast! That track is a ton of fun and very challenging.
Plus the weather was awesome
To no more clutch issues!
Hope to see you in July at Pocono, let me know if I can help you with anything.
It was good to see you yesterday! That clutch must have made a huge difference....Just before I passed you
I followed you for a bit and it looked like you had learned to driveYesterday was a blast! That track is a ton of fun and very challenging.
Plus the weather was awesome
To no more clutch issues!Hope to see you in July at Pocono, let me know if I can help you with anything.
See you soon,
TomK
06-26-2010, 07:16 PM
#19
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the replies everybody. The thread has indeed helped me. For those talking about clean fluid, trust me, I've been nursing this one along for the last four years and 40,000 miles. It is toast now and you can turkey baster it all you want, it ain't fixing it. I'm ready to bite the bullit and fix it for real now.
I've pretty much decided I want the Al flywheel but I'll have to check into pricing and decide between a '02-'04 Z06 clutch and a spec 2. I have to check into RPS as well. I'm sure LS7 would clamp and drive great, but I like the idea of reving up and down quicker rather than slower. It's more about that than getting a couple more HP to the ground.
As for install.... it's definitely a DIY job for me although I've never had a C5 apart. I'm sure torquing flywheel bolts while laying on a creeper and trying to keep the engine from turning is going to be blast.
Thanks again for your help and time everybody!
The thread has indeed helped me. For those talking about clean fluid, trust me, I've been nursing this one along for the last four years and 40,000 miles. It is toast now and you can turkey baster it all you want, it ain't fixing it. I'm ready to bite the bullit and fix it for real now.I've pretty much decided I want the Al flywheel but I'll have to check into pricing and decide between a '02-'04 Z06 clutch and a spec 2. I have to check into RPS as well. I'm sure LS7 would clamp and drive great, but I like the idea of reving up and down quicker rather than slower. It's more about that than getting a couple more HP to the ground.
As for install.... it's definitely a DIY job for me although I've never had a C5 apart. I'm sure torquing flywheel bolts while laying on a creeper and trying to keep the engine from turning is going to be blast.
Thanks again for your help and time everybody!
Last edited by ptindall; 06-26-2010 at 07:19 PM.
06-26-2010, 09:59 PM
#20
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I thought I would try to get by with factory clutch master on my set up in the '03 Z. I could not get the car in gear. The Tick master fixed it for another $300. Go ahead and do it, you'll need it. One of those 3 little nuts under the panel to hang the pedal back on require a short socket (grind it down), put some tape on for resistance and use a fine toothed ratchet with 6 degree swing (?). A little trick that makes it much easier. You will see what I mean when you get there.
