JasonC

In the past two years I've attended 5 HPDEs, all at the same track. I am happy with my progress, always have a great time, and have advanced to the middle run group.

I drove this past weekend, and my instructor had very little input. He told me my lines were good, my braking, turn in, etc. were all good. At first I was frustrated because I know I still have a lot to learn and a lot of speed to pick up. But then I started to wonder if I have simply learned everything that they have to teach, and now it's up to me to put in the seat time by myself and grow more accustomed to the car and build my skills in this run group or take the next step to a more advanced racing school. ...or possibly I just had a crummy instructor? Our last session, I was suspicious that he was sleeping as much as he was moving around in the car

My question is: I know not to expect a Skip Barber level of instruction, but what should I expect? The HPDE instructors are simply volunteers getting paid with track time, but if they don't have any more to offer I can simply do open track days at the same track and save a lot of money.

How uncouth is it to request a different instructor mid-day if I don't feel like I'm getting my money's worth?

Aardwolf

One of the things I like to do is review my video to learn where to tweak my lines or learn on the fly. The carousel at Road America has been the most recent endeavor for me. I prefer to learn by myself rather than have it all handed to me. Figuring things out is part of the fun! It seems you're at a crossroads, and need to redefine what you love about the hobby. More instruction, learning on your own, go W2W or TT, maybe change hobbies all together.

L98Terror

I would say time to step up to a higher level HPDE like NASA, local clubs only offer so much and many times the instructors don't have that much experience, sometimes they have more experience drinking beers with the organizers than teaching at a high level.

jaa1992

Here is my $0.02 and I instruct for several groups:

ITS YOUR MONEY! If you feel you are not getting the instruction you want help your instructor out. Tell him "next session I want to work on turn 6, I think I'm losing time there and would like your help improving my line". As you advance you have to tell your instructor what you want to work on. When I have a student that has the "school" line down I go to the folks running the event and see if I can have them run one lap on the left and one lap on the right, can I do other off line drills, can I do "bump the gators". These are all additional tools we can add to students tool boxes. If I can't do any of those things then I start talking to them about emergency situations and what they can do to prepare for them. If I sign a student to solo a session or two I find a spot near their most troublesome spot and watch them during their solo session.

If your instructor doesn't respond to your request - talk to the event organizers and swap instructors. Sometimes personalities/instruction/learning methods don't mix and switching things up changes the whole learning process.

Greywolfe

I would also suggest trying a different track. Mix it up a bit. Throw in a few auto-crosses each year... get rides with instructors.

Also like suggested above start running off line drills and do some lead-follow.

If you get soloed then occasionally have an instructer ride along with you to give you an assesment. You might be thinking you got it down but other can see where you need improvement.

There are so many levels at this sport and its a constant challenge to better your driving abilities.

The biggest thing that boosted my learning curve was getting a ride with my instructor Jason. After seeing, no, make that feeling, what the car could do with a great driver (and some sticky tires ) I knew what the car could do and the it was me that needed all the improvement.

Disclaimer: (you may need to bring a barf bag if you get someone as fast as Jason).

spdislife

Same circumstances at my first DE this weekend. My instructor Jack is a good one and it was an eye opener with him behind the wheel.

MRIENG

My .02 cents. Tell your instructor what you what to work on. If you know the school line, ask for a ride with the instructor to compare. Also, if your not getting the instruction you want, ask someone in the organization for a change. The groups I instruct with are all for this. Make sure your getting what you pay for.

JimbeauZ06

IMHO 5 events in two years at one track makes you still relatively inexperienced overall and while I agree you need to visit other tracks to continue to grow as a driver, a good instructor should still be able to teach you something or if your driving skill exceeds their coaching ability then they should hand you over to someone who can push your skills to the next level. I encourage my students to take advantage of as much free instruction as possible and to request specific instructors who I know can help them. You definitely should have asked the chief instructor for someone else.

bb69

As an organizer, I would suggest a couple things.

As L98Terror mentioned, not all instructors are equal. Organizers can't always find enough top tier instructors. It's a lot easier to find instructors that are perfect for showing someone how to get started. Talk to your instructor and tell them what you want. If that doesn't get the job done, then you need to speak with the organizer and let them know you need more help. Be specific about what you are looking for. The more discussion you have with the organizer and the instructors, the higher the probability you will get what you want.

Try different groups as well. You need to understand what type of group you are running with. Lots of groups say open track or HPDE, but they mean different things. I run open track days and provide instruction for people on a first come, first served basis. Other groups provide instruction sessions with a little bit of lapping thrown in. The price normally reflects what you are getting. If you are going to the lowest cost event, you probably aren't getting top tier instruction. Just being honest here.

One other thing, make sure that are actually "paying" for an instructor. As I said, I provide them first come, first served. It's never implied that every person will have an instructor with them for the entire day. Read the fine print when you sign up for an event. Groups that assign instructors usually make that pretty clear. The really good ones will even get you in touch with the instructor before the event so you can start a dialogue.

Finally, as others have already said, 5 events is not enough to be past the need for instruction. My rule of thumb is: unless you're getting paid to drive, you can use more instruction.

Have fun
Ken

cire96

Not uncouth at all. As one who instructs at PDX events in several SCCA regions and for a for profit organizer, both tell the students that if they don't feel that they're getting what they need, to speak up so that they can get a new instructor in the car.

That said, I always ask the student what he/she wants to get out of the day, so we can work on that skillset. But if the instructor doesn't ask you, tell him! I will say however, that almost every student universally needs to do three things better ... 1) smooth out the transition from brakes to gas (and back) and 2) brake later and harder and 3) lessen the severity (and quantity) of steering inputs.

You may want to find a track day organizer who have proven racers as instructors and who specializes in teaching drivers how to go faster. If you're ever up our way, come see us at 10/10ths!
Cire

67Ranger

Im in a little of a similar situation where I get the basic line and its time for a little bit more advanced concepts, and Ive had good luck just talking to my instructors about little things that Ive noticed, things I'd like to try, sections of the track that I might want to run a little different, and Ive been able to get more out of them the more I asked questions. That being said, Ive always had good luck with the drivers edge in TX, and I know they do events at MSR houston and TWS, so you might want to check them out.

DansBlkonBlkZ06

With only 5 events you can try a different track or challange your instructor to push you in an area you haven't mastered yet. Try turning off the nannies (if you haven't already), try trail braking in a turn that pays off in time if you do, etc. I've only got 6 events under my belt and am still learning alot from different instructors. Of course some instructors are better than others, but they will generally help you if you ask. I've been to 3 tracks with 3 different clubs and enjoy the variety. You may find that one club fits you well with better instructors than another club.

L98Terror

As stated in some of the above posts, look at what you are signing up for. The lower cost track days are not equipped to offer top tier instruction. If you are paying $150 or so a day tthat barely covers the cost of the track and you probably aren't going to get a top tier instructor to spend the entire day with you, what you will get is access to the track and someone to show you the basics, if you luck out you might get someone who can really help you for a session or two, but don't expect to see that person all day.

If you go with a club like NASA Great Lakes you will get a dedacated instructor for the weekend I can tell you that they have some great instructors and some so so instructors. Part of what is taught is how to teach yourself. For that you are paying about $300 + for two days but are getting less than half the track time that you would get at a 3 ***** event.

What you could do is hire someone like myself to spend the entire day with you teaching you the ropes, hire a Pro (they will not get in the car with you), go to a driving school (about 1k+ a day) or pick up a few books and read, then pick up pointers here and there and analyze your own driving and make improvements.

Doing different track helps also.

L98Terror

Why don't you just drive faster? If all your basics are good you need to just push yourself, a instructor will only push you so much, it's not there car and the last thing an instructor wants is a student to wad up their car because they pushed the student beyond their limit.

If you're not sure what your car can do go for a ride with someone a little more advanced with a similar car and see what they do.

JasonC

Thanks for all the input

Funny that someone finally came out and said it, but I think this may be my exact "problem" with this particular track & car. If I'm doing everything right, but just driving around slow, I can fully understand how my instructor wouldn't want to push me harder than I'm comfortable going. The last thing they want to hear from a student is how they were doing just fine until they were told to brake deeper, push harder, go faster, etc, and ended up wrecking their car.

Since my first post, I've been in touch with a friend of mine that is a NASA racer and instructs some times at the same track. He encouraged me to request a particular instructor, which I will do next time i sign up. He also told me that if my lines and technique are pretty good, the only way for me to go faster was to... go faster.

In addition to the HPDEs I've done in the Vette, I've raced 4 LeMons races in a Fox Mustang at a different track, which has helped my driving substantially. I guess this goes to show that even with no instructor and a mediocre car, you just can't replace seat time.

Based on that fact and the input from here, I think I'll do another DE or so, then sign up for a few solo track days with an in-car camera to gain experience and then hopefully I'll be ready to step up to another level of instruction.

naschmitz

I was going to suggest something similar. You need a goal. One goal might be to turn quicker laps. Get a datalogger or a laptimer so you get yourself some objective feedback. Want to work on hand positions on the steering wheel? Get a camera setup and watch yourself drive. It is amazing how different my data logs and videos are from my memories.

Are you heel/toeing? Trail braking? There are a bunch of car control techniques to get the car around the track that you won't have learned after 5 days.

Maybe you want to play with car setup? Learn how do to your own alignments and make a change to see if you can tell that you changed the toe or the camber. Change tire pressures by 2psi and see if you can tell how that changed the handling.

That's the one thing I like about COMSCC time trials compared to regular HPDEs -- there's a goal and an objective for being there. I want to be quicker and see how I stack up against similar drivers and cars. I want to see improvement since the last time I drove the track, either in my car setup or my driving skills.

Without a goal, HPDE is just driving in circles.

Jason

Nothing steps up your game faster than: competition
Whether it's autocross, NASA TT, or Time Attack. Get on the clock and you'll be pushing your car and yourself way past sane in no time.

Nothing steps up your potential to wad up your car faster either.