kwhiteside

Been doing track for about 4 years now and I'm one of those average drivers that will never have "it". I've driven with some guys in the Southeast that really steer their high powered vettes with the gas. While I slide some through the turns and am learning to use the gas to move my rear out, I just don't have the confidence to hang it out like these guys do. I'm ok knowing many are just simply way better than me. But that particular technique of feeling the grip in the turns and using the gas to change your angle to make a turn is really driving the car instead of just doing laps. So I meditate and fight with a few things.

Tire width's

My second season, I ran Kumho V710's 335-17 on rear and 275-17 on front. Tracks are Roebling, and Road Atlanta and Barber. With that setup I got fast enough to where the limiting factor was always pushing in the turns. Any time I felt my rear brake loose, a slight correction would always save it. The only times I went off were coming in hot and pushing off track.

So I changed to 18's to get the 295 or 315's on the front. I also switched to Hoosier R6 tires. Stock Z06 wheels with 315's on back. With this setup, I can say the plowing is gone and I like that I can come in much sharper. However, I've never felt the stick that those wide V710's had in the rear. Losing it to a spin is now the fashionable way to go off track . Where the previous season I was always able to correct with half wheel countersteer, this setup gets away from my ability to detect and correct. As any reasonable driver would admit, that weighs on your mind and effects what your doing out there.

Driving with the Cougar

Early on in season 3 I took the Z06 out at Road Atlanta on a wet day with those R6's. Had an easy off on T6 and the unthinkable happened, hit the wet grass and slid all the way from the out at 6 past 7 to the wall. That was just stupid. The line of people who had wrecked at the NASA event was pretty constant. If I'm ever an instructor, I will always explain what wet grass will do if you find yourself on it. As you can imagine, that off haunts me

So I picked up another C5 Z06 and eased back into it the first couple events. Really started to get my confidence back at a Roebling event. Ran a couple 1:23 laps and was getting a bit faster when the rear stepped out on the carousel. I corrected enough to not spin, but had to go off. I learned what berms can do to your car with only 4 inch clearance that day. Minimal damage to the car and I even drove it the next day with a few pushed around parts. This off haunts me way more than the stupid wet track day. You experts know all about it. Right turn, rear gets loose to the outside, correction, and off to the inside. . . . . Now super-impose that experience onto turn 9 at Roebling or Turn 12 at Road Atlanta where the inside of the track is nicely lined with a big long brick wall.

So I reflect on why I now can't feel the extent of the rear stepping out. I'm absolutely certain those V710 335's spoiled me. Call me crazy, but I kinda like that safety net.

R Compounds and Tire Width

So I went to R6's for my third season because everybody at the time was saying they were the best. So I tag along with the C5 mafia when they let me and realize they are all running A6's. They go out at Road Atlanta in the morning and set track records in 40 degrees on their second or third lap and quit with it gets hot. I don't really start feeling decent grip until hotlanta starts burning up. Now I realize I'm a average driver and these guys are special, but there's a reason they run A6 over R6.

To conquer the cougar, I've get to feel and be able to save that rear when it steps out. Now I've driven in the car with these guys when they started to spin, as well as watched a few vids where they pretty much lost it, but because of the immediate violent correction, they pull it out.

So I'm thinking -

a. I got spoiled with my wide V710's and perhaps learned some bad hapbits. Maybe I just need more seat time, skid pad time, learning to better correct rather than changing equipment.

b. Put A6 315's on rear instead of R6 315 and maybe I will have more grip.

c. Get some aftermarket 11+ inch rear wheels and put the V710 335's or A6 335's (if they make that size A6) and enter back into the spoiled comfort zone.


Please share you experience and give me your insight.

grantar2

I autocross not track, but is there any chance that since you were worried about the car pushing with the V710's you weren't going in as hot as you have been with the R6's and so the rear was less of a problem?

If the choice is V710 vs. A6 go V710 they will last longer even though they may not be as fast at the begining they will be faster at the end of life. Wider R6's might be the answer, or a lot of time on a 200 foot skid pad with an instructor. The skid pad work did wonders for me on skid and spin control.

bobmoore2

You want a bigger tire in the rear vs front, but not a lot bigger. I run 305 front 315 rear on my C6 Z51 (also 400 HP but a different chassis), and find it is very balanced. It has very slight understeer steady state, but I can easily change to controllable oversteer with the throttle.

You also NEED to get some more practice on a skidpad. The way to correct most oversteer spin-outs is with IMMEDIATE countersteer. It has to be an instantaneous reaction. Practice will improve your ability to sense oversteer very quickly, and will deeply ingrain an instantaneous countersteer reaction. A skidpad is the only place where you can safely practice controlled oversteer.

Have you ever taken an Advanced Driving School? Not a Racing School, but an advanced Driving school. Skip Barber teaches one, and a few other companies also. An Advanced Driving School will teach you how to handle a car at its limits and even slightly beyond - things like Threshold Braking, Threshold Braking while turning, overcoming understeer, controlling oversteer, and a few other skills that will help you control your car better on the street and the track. These skills could save your life some day, too.

Jason

I believe some, if not all, of the driving schools offer skid pad courses. I've heard this helps with car control/throttle steer. I learned the slow way by spinning *a lot* while autocrossing for years.

drivinhard

the summit point FATT days/schools used to run ex cop cars on the skid pad (dry and wet). lot of fun!

I can't believe you got in the car with any of the C5 mafia, we don't like to even ride with ourselves

varkwso

I might ride with the C5 mafia on the way to lunch, in a SUV, with speed limits....

sperkins

Typically, everyone is different and likes their car to do different things. It's good that you experiemented with what works for others, but it looks like that's not what is best for you with your current driving style.

You have a couple of options. You can set the car up the way you like it with the split tire size to induce understeer, or you can try to set it up neutral or loose with a square setup and keep trying it until the light comes on. If you choose the latter, I would run on the oldest heat cycled out track tires you have or run street tires. Either way you'll be slower, but you'll have a better feel for the edge and be safer due to the slower speeds.
Just a thought.

drivinhard

my wife gets on to my driving, ie, I drive too slow

RacePro Engineering

Ken,

There is the obvious "countersteer" about which Bob writes in his quote above, and then there is the less-obvious counter-countersteer, that many of us utilize, usually without even thinking about it. That counter-counter is the part that may be missing from your repertoir.

If I might interject a couple comments into your original post:
"You experts know all about it. Right turn, rear gets loose to the outside . . . ."
[As Bob implies above, that tendancy of the rear to step-out needs to be anticipated, so that AS it "gets loose", the driver is controlling that yaw movement with his countersteer. At or near the car's cornering limits, one can not wait for the oversteer; one must EXPECT the oversteer.]

" correction,"
[Let us say, however, we have severe, unexpected, oversteer. Our countersteer must now become, as Bob wrote, IMMEDIATE and dramatic. The car is over-rotating to the right, and we must prevent that. A common mistake made during this phase of correction is to lift off the throttle suddenly. Such a movement nearly guarantees a spin! One has added to the oversteer by unloading the rear tires! Instead, the throttle should be modulated back very gradually.]

" and off to the inside. . . . . "
[Snapping off the throttle, OR simply executing a a big countersteer movement, will frequently send one off the track on the inside. At other times, it may set up a "tank slapper", where the car oscillates from one side of the track to the other, and each "catch" results in a more voilent subsequent "slide" down the track, typically ending badly!

The missing link here is the counter-countersteer. We think about it this way: The car has suddenly become unsettled, and is oversteering to the right. The driver makes a BIG countersteer movement, intended to bring the rear end back in line with the front. In so doing, the rear end has become even more unsettled, and now will sweep across the track like a pendulum, NOT stopping to line up with the front - UNLESS - unless that original BIG countersteer movement is immediately followed by a somewhat smaller steering movement, in this example toward the right.]

Someone else mentioned tire characteristics. Assuming both are new, the mechanical grip of your former tires is not as good as the Hoosiers. Therefore, your former tires gave you more warning before losing adhesion, with associated time to correct. The R6s offer more mechanical grip, with less warning before they break away. Moving to the A6 compound will make your situation even worse, because they offer even more mechanical grip, at the expense of even more sudden break-away.

While spins are never fun, they are a part of the game for those of us who strive to go fast. Learning to minimize their frequency; and learning to minimize the drama caused by each; well, that's just learning. Hope this helps,

Ed LoPresti

Jason

It's scary out on the road. Those people are crazy.

sperkins

I agree with Ed. The counter-countersteer is really where you save the car.
The C5 is not an easy animal to control once it breaks loose since once you save the initial spin it wants to spin around the other way. This "pendulum effect" is the toughest to control and requires immediate input and in most cases even before the car begins to snap the other way.

This to me was the best save of the year. Notice the quick "counter-countersteer" and throttle application as the car overcorrected and began to spin the other direction.

30 sec mark:

brkntrxn

Ken,

I'd suggest that you go back to a higher treadware R-comp like an NT01 or an R888. These will still give you greater grip than a street tire, but with more "slide" than an R6 and way more than an A6. I have no intention of sounding harsh, but you may have come off street tires too soon. I don't recommend anyone go to an R-comp until they are completely comfortable driving a car sideways and capable of recovering from said slide. From the sounds of it, I think you would gain a lot of confidence by going back to a tire that will "talk" to you up to its moment of letting go. That will help refresh your mind and your butt to "feel" the grip. Something to think about.

Someone else mentioned "advanced driving schools". Asphalt Ventures(www.asphaltventures.com) provides Advanced Driving Clinics at several tracks in NC where skills such as this are discussed AND practiced on the skid pad and on the track. PM me if you want more information and I can point you in the right direction.



-Kevin

brkntrxn

I agree. That extra counter-counter steer and the jab of the throttle is what settled the car. The ability to do can be taught, others just have "it".



-Kevin

RacePro Engineering

Great example, Scott. Your counter-counter technique transformed potential damage into a .2 second delay in lap time! A very nice trade-off!

Actually, most of the advanced racing schools used to teach this as a "single movement" (maybe they still do?). When explaining it in writing, it is just easier to divide the movements, but they should be so seemless that one leads naturally to the next.

One must assume that the first movement (steering to the left) WILL HAVE "over corrected" the slide (to the left), and that the slide in the opposite direction (to the right) now needs correction. If one waits to see the effect of the first movement, it will be too late.

Applying the throttle, while it may seem counter-intuitive in these situations, shifts additional weight, and therefore grip, to the rear. It just must be done in a manner that IMPROVES settling the car, like when the front and rear wheels are nearly aligned.

But what I really want to know is, do these cars spin only when turning right?

Ed

kwhiteside

You guys have given me a lot to think about. Ed brought out some great points. Can I get some confirmation on the point above before I digest that?

I do understand the counter and then counter countersteer and have saved quite a few step outs, but never anything with as violent counters as what Mark did in his vid. Scott does the same stuff. It blows my mind that they have saves like that and keep going like nothing happened, nor will it happen again. But I guess if you can save it most the time, why panic. I guess that is what "it" is!

grantar2

I was fortunate my region periodically sets up a skid pad when we have our larger venue before divisional and national events. The skid pad is reason enough to go.

gintama

Aside from the driving techniques mentioned above, there are 2 things that most affect spins: tire choice and alignment.

Every tire has certain "breakaway" characteristics. Some have better feedback than others. For example, R888 have very good feedback as mentioned above. Tires like Hoosiers and Michelin Pilot sport cups, not so good. They will stick better, but the breakaway is quick and you need experience to catch it. Unless you feel more comfortable sliding the rears, stay away from tires that do not "talk to you".

The other aspect is the amount of toe-in in the rear. More experienced drivers like less toe-in to rotate the rear, not necessarily slide the rear. There is a big difference here. Make sure your alignment is set to toe-in. Have a race car shop, in our area Phoenix Performance goes a good job, set you up properly. This is not the place to save money and go to the local tire change shop.

Timz06

Read Skip Barber's book, 'Going Faster'. The spin is discussed and how to recover. I'll try to post up a few pages.

I don't think you can learn how to drive from a forum or books, but it helps understand what is going on.

Tim

varkwso

Nope I have spun left in these cars quite nicely.


Ken - lots of good inputs here and you are getting better with keeping the car settled, heel/toe, trail braking and putting the car where you want it. Keep changes to a minimum, no matter what you do, so you can learn to drive the car you have....chasing setup is a plus/minus thing and can cause the "experts" headaches.

drivinhard

I had 50% right side weight on it (up from 46% before that weekend). If I had had more time, I would have thrown even more over there