Good Starter Car for RR or Track Days
#1
Heel & Toe
Thread Starter
Member Since: Jul 2008
Location: North Jersey
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Good Starter Car for RR or Track Days
I am asking this question on this forum because I would like a mature answer. Knowing there are alot of older members (lol not a bad thing) with lots of expirence here vs. other forums I belong to. I feel this is a good starting place. I want to get into doing road racing, track days, HDPE's etc but I am unsure what a good starter car would be. A little back round of myself...29 years old, no kids, good job, have always been into cars. My first was a 5.0L mustang I bought when I was 15, 2years before I had my licsence. Since then I have a wide range of cars from VW's to Lexus. I have done a ton of drag racing over the years, a fair amount of karting and some parking lot RR. Some cars I have thought about are 04 R32, E36 M3, E46 M3, E92 M3, WRX, EVO, C5 Z06, C6 Z-51 and s2000. 2 things I need are:
1. Must be RWD or AWD no FWD
2. The car will remain street able. I live in a condo and don't own a truck so I can't be trailoring this car around...it will be driven to events.
So my question is what do you guys suggest?
1. Must be RWD or AWD no FWD
2. The car will remain street able. I live in a condo and don't own a truck so I can't be trailoring this car around...it will be driven to events.
So my question is what do you guys suggest?
#2
Burning Brakes
A C4 will be your cheapest entry cost until you know if you will stay with it, but understand the C4 is dated technology. A C5 will be a better handling car with better technology.
If you are like most, you WILL be hooked, so the C5 is probably better for the long term.
If you are like most, you WILL be hooked, so the C5 is probably better for the long term.
#4
Safety Car
Member Since: Nov 2000
Location: Shenandoah Valley Virginia
Posts: 4,549
Likes: 0
Received 27 Likes
on
24 Posts
My recommendation would be a C5 Z06. Great all around car that you can run the snot out of with little modification. It has much better than average stock suspension, brakes are acceptable, and more than enough horsepower. You can find low to moderate milage cars in the mid to low 20's. Great value for the money !
#5
Burning Brakes
Another vote for a C5Z...
I'm a big BMW fan too, but you can't beat the $26 rotors for the Corvette... I think they are also more robust than the bimmers... Looks like you might not have a cash issue, so certainly a E92 M3 would be perfect, plus the brake pads and rotors are covered by BMW for 4years/50k miles. A heck of a great daily driver as well...
I'm a big BMW fan too, but you can't beat the $26 rotors for the Corvette... I think they are also more robust than the bimmers... Looks like you might not have a cash issue, so certainly a E92 M3 would be perfect, plus the brake pads and rotors are covered by BMW for 4years/50k miles. A heck of a great daily driver as well...
#6
Drifting
Get a spec Miata. Corvettes are fantastic track cars, and you will be hard pressed to find a better bang for the buck than a C5Z. However, Corvettes have LOTS of power, relatively large tires, big brakes, etc. All those things tend to cover up a lot of mistakes YOU are making as the driver. You will go to track days and pass people simply because the car is fast. When other Vettes go screaming past you, you will be convinced it's because they have built engines, and big brake kits, and Hoosiers. The reality is that it's because they are better drivers.
I don't know a single person who has bought only one track car and not wanted to change to something else later. Start with a Miata and learn to drive. When you are passing the high HP Vettes in your Miata, then get a Corvette and really have some fun.
Ken
I don't know a single person who has bought only one track car and not wanted to change to something else later. Start with a Miata and learn to drive. When you are passing the high HP Vettes in your Miata, then get a Corvette and really have some fun.
Ken
#7
Instructor
Member Since: Apr 2008
Location: Centreville VA
Posts: 163
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I just started HPDE's last year with my C5Z, and it has been an awesome dual purpose car.
A buddy of mine runs an E46 M3, and he loves his choice, too. You can't beat either one for the money - about the same price.
Consumables are probably comparable. The E46 parts are 3-4x more expensive, but I go through mine 2-3x faster.
It's always nice to have a bit more displacement...
A buddy of mine runs an E46 M3, and he loves his choice, too. You can't beat either one for the money - about the same price.
Consumables are probably comparable. The E46 parts are 3-4x more expensive, but I go through mine 2-3x faster.
It's always nice to have a bit more displacement...
#8
Le Mans Master
Get a spec Miata. Corvettes are fantastic track cars, and you will be hard pressed to find a better bang for the buck than a C5Z. However, Corvettes have LOTS of power, relatively large tires, big brakes, etc. All those things tend to cover up a lot of mistakes YOU are making as the driver. You will go to track days and pass people simply because the car is fast. When other Vettes go screaming past you, you will be convinced it's because they have built engines, and big brake kits, and Hoosiers. The reality is that it's because they are better drivers.
I don't know a single person who has bought only one track car and not wanted to change to something else later. Start with a Miata and learn to drive. When you are passing the high HP Vettes in your Miata, then get a Corvette and really have some fun.
Ken
I don't know a single person who has bought only one track car and not wanted to change to something else later. Start with a Miata and learn to drive. When you are passing the high HP Vettes in your Miata, then get a Corvette and really have some fun.
Ken
Last edited by Cloaked323; 01-21-2011 at 02:49 PM.
#9
Pro
Member Since: Jun 2001
Location: Loudoun County, VA
Posts: 717
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Now, this Miata driver eats all pompous Vette drivers all day long when it's wet out. You can't use your horsepower, you can't drive, and I'll lap you if you dare to stay out, California or east coast, no matter to me.
But to answer the OP's question and to agree with a previous reply, a Miata is a great car to learn on.
#10
Safety Car
Honda S2000 if you can't stomach a Miata. No torque, so relatively easy to drive fast, but has some power up top which makes it fun. Great brakes. Fast for autox too. Can be had cheap. Bulletproof at the track (can run 8 sessions/day, no problem), cheap upkeep ($40 discs, pads, fluid). Need to add a roll bar, as with a Miata.
Once you are comfortable in this, then move to a C5. You will be amazed at how much harder a C5 is to drive quickly, depending on the track you'll probably be a bit slower than in the S2k at first. Takes a while to get used to being gentle with the throttle due to torque and programming yourself to make corrections before they are needed (i.e. before the car is really out of shape). C5 is cheap to upkeep as well, though eats discs and pads at a faster rate. You'll need a harness bar, harnesses and seats in a C5 - stock seats (even the sport ones) are dangerous on the track as you try to hold yourself in place while making gentle steering inputs.
Once you are comfortable in this, then move to a C5. You will be amazed at how much harder a C5 is to drive quickly, depending on the track you'll probably be a bit slower than in the S2k at first. Takes a while to get used to being gentle with the throttle due to torque and programming yourself to make corrections before they are needed (i.e. before the car is really out of shape). C5 is cheap to upkeep as well, though eats discs and pads at a faster rate. You'll need a harness bar, harnesses and seats in a C5 - stock seats (even the sport ones) are dangerous on the track as you try to hold yourself in place while making gentle steering inputs.
Last edited by RX-Ben; 01-21-2011 at 04:14 PM.
#11
Burning Brakes
My 2 cents:
- go with a RWD, not a AWD. Learn to drive the car w/o the added security of front wheels pulling you out of corners. Plus those EVOs and Subs don't exactly have sterling reliability records
- There is a lot to be said for driving a car that has a large track day enthusiast following. I don't think I've ever been to a track day that didn't have at least one other C5/6 and the majority have many C5/6s. The same can be said for the E36/46 BMWs, Miatas and to some extent Porsches - these are the most commonly tracked RWD cars. This gives you lots of support with parts, help when things go wrong and ready made network of friends.
- The C5 is awesome bang for the buck. The level of performance per $ is high. But, with speed comes cost. Tires and brakes wear out at prodigious rates. Tires are big and expensive. High water and oil temps are common and need to be delt with. Read the What I Learned Sticky to get an idea of the costs of serious track usage. My Mustang is cheaper to track then my Vette (but not as fun). My buddy's E36 M3 is cheaper also (but a lot slower, until he turbo'd it).
- Which is best to learn in? I think there are a lot of different opinions. The S2000 has a reputation for being difficult. The E36/46s are highly praised for drivability. The Miata is probably the most recommended starting car. The late model Mustangs are very easy to drive. The Vette takes a lot more throttle discipline.
- If I was starting over I'd probably pick an E36, barely street legal, as light as I could get it for the first couple years and then either turbo it or move to a Vette.
- go with a RWD, not a AWD. Learn to drive the car w/o the added security of front wheels pulling you out of corners. Plus those EVOs and Subs don't exactly have sterling reliability records
- There is a lot to be said for driving a car that has a large track day enthusiast following. I don't think I've ever been to a track day that didn't have at least one other C5/6 and the majority have many C5/6s. The same can be said for the E36/46 BMWs, Miatas and to some extent Porsches - these are the most commonly tracked RWD cars. This gives you lots of support with parts, help when things go wrong and ready made network of friends.
- The C5 is awesome bang for the buck. The level of performance per $ is high. But, with speed comes cost. Tires and brakes wear out at prodigious rates. Tires are big and expensive. High water and oil temps are common and need to be delt with. Read the What I Learned Sticky to get an idea of the costs of serious track usage. My Mustang is cheaper to track then my Vette (but not as fun). My buddy's E36 M3 is cheaper also (but a lot slower, until he turbo'd it).
- Which is best to learn in? I think there are a lot of different opinions. The S2000 has a reputation for being difficult. The E36/46s are highly praised for drivability. The Miata is probably the most recommended starting car. The late model Mustangs are very easy to drive. The Vette takes a lot more throttle discipline.
- If I was starting over I'd probably pick an E36, barely street legal, as light as I could get it for the first couple years and then either turbo it or move to a Vette.
#12
Le Mans Master
Member Since: Jul 2004
Location: Mississauga Ontario
Posts: 5,386
Likes: 0
Received 13 Likes
on
7 Posts
So what is your budget?
You need to look at Cost of the Car
Track day Expenses
Maintence Expenses
Consumable Expenses
C6 Z06's are amazing bang for the buck ... right out of the box, they are phenominal ... car up keep is reasonable ... good on fuel ... Last year I spent about $1,000.00 per HPDE day ... Track Fees ... Fuel ... Food ... Gatorade / Water ... Wear and Tear on Tires ... brakes ... etc.
Good luck ... have fun ... leave your ego at the entry gate, and stay safe!
You need to look at Cost of the Car
Track day Expenses
Maintence Expenses
Consumable Expenses
C6 Z06's are amazing bang for the buck ... right out of the box, they are phenominal ... car up keep is reasonable ... good on fuel ... Last year I spent about $1,000.00 per HPDE day ... Track Fees ... Fuel ... Food ... Gatorade / Water ... Wear and Tear on Tires ... brakes ... etc.
Good luck ... have fun ... leave your ego at the entry gate, and stay safe!
Last edited by CDN_Wolf_eh; 01-21-2011 at 05:25 PM.
#13
Burning Brakes
I vote C5Z. I have a C4 that's gutted(2780lbs wet) with other work done to it and 335 old but still sticker Hoosier slicks on it. I also have a 99FRC (LS1..at that time ) I put race pads and non-DOT scrubs on the C5 and it was like 5+ seconds a lap faster...it was WAY, WAY better on the track...no comparison.
My uncle has a 04 R32. I love that car. It is nice inside and a sleeper. Nice exhaust note and very peppy. However it is just peppy...not insanely fast or anything like that. Nice car...but for a car I was going to road race it would leave me a little to be desired down the straights.
For the money a FRC or C5Z can't be beat on the road track. And then when your done just drive it home and have a nice looking daily driver thats fun and still turns heads.
My uncle has a 04 R32. I love that car. It is nice inside and a sleeper. Nice exhaust note and very peppy. However it is just peppy...not insanely fast or anything like that. Nice car...but for a car I was going to road race it would leave me a little to be desired down the straights.
For the money a FRC or C5Z can't be beat on the road track. And then when your done just drive it home and have a nice looking daily driver thats fun and still turns heads.
#14
Safety Car
Get a c5 z06 that is your best bet-decent street car, great track car, reasonable price, easy to work on and fix.
A spec miata is a race car, not a street car. Any corvette driver who has graduated beyond the basic hpde levels should not be getting passed by miata's very often.
Tim
A spec miata is a race car, not a street car. Any corvette driver who has graduated beyond the basic hpde levels should not be getting passed by miata's very often.
Tim
#16
Racer
Member Since: Sep 2008
Location: Houston Texas
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like someone said in a previous post it all depends on your budget.
I did 2 years of HPDE in my C5Z that was my daily driver. You said you have a decent job and no kids so that helps.
There is always the chance you could put your car into a wall which ends up costing alot of money to fix on a Corvette (ask me how I know...) so you have to factor that into the can I afford it equation.
The consumables can get pricey too (again it relative to your income/budget) depending on how hard you drive you will go through tires and brake pads/rotors fairly quickly.
That being said I also vote for C5Z as the best all purpose street/track weekend car. Take a stock C5Z on street tires. Throw on some track pads and have a blast all weekend then drive home listening to a CD with the A/C blasting getting 28 mpg in overdrive.
I did 2 years of HPDE in my C5Z that was my daily driver. You said you have a decent job and no kids so that helps.
There is always the chance you could put your car into a wall which ends up costing alot of money to fix on a Corvette (ask me how I know...) so you have to factor that into the can I afford it equation.
The consumables can get pricey too (again it relative to your income/budget) depending on how hard you drive you will go through tires and brake pads/rotors fairly quickly.
That being said I also vote for C5Z as the best all purpose street/track weekend car. Take a stock C5Z on street tires. Throw on some track pads and have a blast all weekend then drive home listening to a CD with the A/C blasting getting 28 mpg in overdrive.
#17
Le Mans Master
Any experienced Miata driver can pass a beginner driver in a Vette. Or a beginner in any other hot car. A Miata driver vs a Corvette driver, experienced vs experienced, the Corvette is going to win hands down. And for an experienced Vette driver vs most other hot cars, the Vette will win.
Now, this Miata driver eats all pompous Vette drivers all day long when it's wet out. You can't use your horsepower, you can't drive, and I'll lap you if you dare to stay out, California or east coast, no matter to me.
But to answer the OP's question and to agree with a previous reply, a Miata is a great car to learn on.
Now, this Miata driver eats all pompous Vette drivers all day long when it's wet out. You can't use your horsepower, you can't drive, and I'll lap you if you dare to stay out, California or east coast, no matter to me.
But to answer the OP's question and to agree with a previous reply, a Miata is a great car to learn on.
#19
cliff notes:
buy a miata.
long version:
some things to consider that I wish I knew when I started this:
budget for consumables.
c5 corvette is a cheap car to get into if you want a car that will let you (eventually) go very very fast, but it will not be cheap to go from your first track day to the one when you are starting to push the limits of the car (could be years)
smaller, lighter cars will make a single set of tires, rotors and pads last many months and will put less wear on drivetrain and suspension.
heavier cars with big engines will have you constantly shopping for your next set of rotors, tires (esp with awd), power steering pumps, etc
so you will be paying all these costs on a vette or m3 or whatnot while not even approaching the speeds these cars are capable of. what's the point?
bad habits.
fast cars with what would have been considered 30 years ago premium race grade power and suspension setup, like a vette, m3, evo, or a modern porsche, will make you think you are a driving god, with computers and good old power masking your mistakes.
don't buy what you cannot afford to leave at the track.
you may think that once you budgeted for the car itself, track fees, instruction fees, and consumables, you have a grip on things. think again. while it is rare for a novice track driver to total their ride, i have seen it happen. as you pick up the speed and start to experiment with your limits, and maybe even get into a friendly "chase" with a comparable car, you can overstep your still developing talents in a pretty dramatic way. you may be famous on intertubes for a few weeks, but that rarely buys you a new car.
i have seen people abandon this hobby for good because damaging their car came as shock, both mentally and financially. I guess they thought it's something that only happens to other people.
have a plan. it may mean buying half of the car you think you can invest into, or budgeting extra for various track insurance options etc.
finally, track days/education cars vs race cars
no car you can drive on the street can be a competetive and safe race car. period. you can have a little of both in the same car, but you are making significant compromises in reliability, street and track safety, and may end up in gray areas of DOT/emission legality.
most of us at some point made compromises to make our daily drivers into somewhat prepared track day cars. these are expensive and frustrating compromises, and almost everyone ends up realizing that at some point, it is not a way to go long term. anyone telling you (usually on the internets) they have a corvette/m3/porsche/s2k/wrx/evo/whatever that's a blast to drive on the street and is also a safe, reliable and competetive road race/track car is full of crap, do not believe a single word that person says.
those who stay in this hobby/sport long enough to figure out how things really work will sell their fancy track day cars, taking a total loss on many thousands invested into it, and go to a daily driver car and a dedicated racecar setup.
I wish I would have learned the basics in a cheap and somewhat disposable car that has excellent track dynamics and does a great job communicating them to the driver. like a miata.
with the money I would have saved on the "fast" starter car (c5 Z06), tires, brakes, maintianance, and reliability upgrades for it, i would have been able to buy a miata back then, and daily driver + VERY NICE race car + tow vehicle + trailer today. i am not exaggarating, I have done the math.
once you are at a point where you maxed out anything you can learn in a miata, you will know what kind of race car you really want/need and how to make it work with the rest of your life.
Or you can buy a corvette or m3 or Evo now. After all, that's what I did.
They are all good cars and can go very fast.
This hobby/sport is not about nice cars going fast though, once you dig deep enough, it's about good drivers going insanely fast in the cars they can afford.
buy a miata.
long version:
some things to consider that I wish I knew when I started this:
budget for consumables.
c5 corvette is a cheap car to get into if you want a car that will let you (eventually) go very very fast, but it will not be cheap to go from your first track day to the one when you are starting to push the limits of the car (could be years)
smaller, lighter cars will make a single set of tires, rotors and pads last many months and will put less wear on drivetrain and suspension.
heavier cars with big engines will have you constantly shopping for your next set of rotors, tires (esp with awd), power steering pumps, etc
so you will be paying all these costs on a vette or m3 or whatnot while not even approaching the speeds these cars are capable of. what's the point?
bad habits.
fast cars with what would have been considered 30 years ago premium race grade power and suspension setup, like a vette, m3, evo, or a modern porsche, will make you think you are a driving god, with computers and good old power masking your mistakes.
don't buy what you cannot afford to leave at the track.
you may think that once you budgeted for the car itself, track fees, instruction fees, and consumables, you have a grip on things. think again. while it is rare for a novice track driver to total their ride, i have seen it happen. as you pick up the speed and start to experiment with your limits, and maybe even get into a friendly "chase" with a comparable car, you can overstep your still developing talents in a pretty dramatic way. you may be famous on intertubes for a few weeks, but that rarely buys you a new car.
i have seen people abandon this hobby for good because damaging their car came as shock, both mentally and financially. I guess they thought it's something that only happens to other people.
have a plan. it may mean buying half of the car you think you can invest into, or budgeting extra for various track insurance options etc.
finally, track days/education cars vs race cars
no car you can drive on the street can be a competetive and safe race car. period. you can have a little of both in the same car, but you are making significant compromises in reliability, street and track safety, and may end up in gray areas of DOT/emission legality.
most of us at some point made compromises to make our daily drivers into somewhat prepared track day cars. these are expensive and frustrating compromises, and almost everyone ends up realizing that at some point, it is not a way to go long term. anyone telling you (usually on the internets) they have a corvette/m3/porsche/s2k/wrx/evo/whatever that's a blast to drive on the street and is also a safe, reliable and competetive road race/track car is full of crap, do not believe a single word that person says.
those who stay in this hobby/sport long enough to figure out how things really work will sell their fancy track day cars, taking a total loss on many thousands invested into it, and go to a daily driver car and a dedicated racecar setup.
I wish I would have learned the basics in a cheap and somewhat disposable car that has excellent track dynamics and does a great job communicating them to the driver. like a miata.
with the money I would have saved on the "fast" starter car (c5 Z06), tires, brakes, maintianance, and reliability upgrades for it, i would have been able to buy a miata back then, and daily driver + VERY NICE race car + tow vehicle + trailer today. i am not exaggarating, I have done the math.
once you are at a point where you maxed out anything you can learn in a miata, you will know what kind of race car you really want/need and how to make it work with the rest of your life.
Or you can buy a corvette or m3 or Evo now. After all, that's what I did.
They are all good cars and can go very fast.
This hobby/sport is not about nice cars going fast though, once you dig deep enough, it's about good drivers going insanely fast in the cars they can afford.
#20
Two more things to consider:
1) Go to a racing school like Bondurant or Skip Barber. You may discover road racing is not for you.
2) Consider renting your race cars, again in a program like Bondurant Formula cars, or Skip Barber Formula or Skip Barber MX-5 Miatas, or any of the other arrive and drive vendors. If you think the cost of renting one of their race cars for a weekend is too much, then you probably haven't done an accurate accounting of the costs of operating your own race car.
The great thing about renting is you can experience a lot of different types of cars, from open wheel formula, to Spec Miata, to Ford Mustangs, before you commit. For example I did the Skip Barber Formula car 3 day racing school. I loved the thrill of open wheel cars, but I discovered I'm just too dang big for them. So I went back for their advanced racing school in the MX-5 cars and had a blast. The main thing is I was much more comfortable fitting in the MX-5. So this year I'll try my hand at a few Skip Barber MX-5 cup races. Next year maybe a different series.
And has been said, forget using your race day car on the street.
1) Go to a racing school like Bondurant or Skip Barber. You may discover road racing is not for you.
2) Consider renting your race cars, again in a program like Bondurant Formula cars, or Skip Barber Formula or Skip Barber MX-5 Miatas, or any of the other arrive and drive vendors. If you think the cost of renting one of their race cars for a weekend is too much, then you probably haven't done an accurate accounting of the costs of operating your own race car.
The great thing about renting is you can experience a lot of different types of cars, from open wheel formula, to Spec Miata, to Ford Mustangs, before you commit. For example I did the Skip Barber Formula car 3 day racing school. I loved the thrill of open wheel cars, but I discovered I'm just too dang big for them. So I went back for their advanced racing school in the MX-5 cars and had a blast. The main thing is I was much more comfortable fitting in the MX-5. So this year I'll try my hand at a few Skip Barber MX-5 cup races. Next year maybe a different series.
And has been said, forget using your race day car on the street.