hamdog

I have a coilover set up with sphericals

varkwso

I have looked at data. They can be surprisingly close. It is often a case of stiction. They have to be driven differently to optimize each platform. Big tire and big hp are hard to beat if weight is not ridiculous.

@Jason - how well I remember spy vs spy...

autoxer6

I often compare data on my autocross C5Z to my friends MSR package miata. We both run in stock class (bigger front sway bar, good shocks, Hoosier A6 tires on stock size wheels)

We both see identical sustained lateral G numbers in big sweepers. 1.32

Data doesn't lie.

varkwso

C17 and F16 have same radius of turn at 4g. How fast they make the arc can differ...and how much energy they have left varies.

Turning fast is not limited to one setup. I want my car to turn like Lewis Hamilton's personally.

Falcon

Wow! I read thru that thread last night, congratulations on a great job!

Like Travis said, you should have posted that over here when you started it!

ptindall

VetteDrmr

I'll keep y'all up to date on my project in the future. Right now I'm still working on engine cooling (now there's new ground to cover!), and learning how to drive again.

Also hope to get some video that's viewable one of these days!

Have a good one,
Mike

varkwso

Great job

GettReal

OK, let me start by saying I am not a car snob at all and I totally enjoyed reading through the LS1 build into a Miata, I think that car would be bad *** and a LOT of fun to drive...

But watching that video, I swear it was like sitting in a forest with a mosquito buzzing in my ear

StKnoWhere

My ability to catch Vettes in corners driving a MX5 pretty much evaporated by the time I reached HPDE 3.

On the other hand, Mike Skeen driving the same car passed half an advanced group in a session. One driver of a Mustang with 2X the HP came up afterwards and ask what kind of turbo I had. I pointed to Mike...

The best investment you can make to improve on the track is in the driver and quality seat time.

JRitt@essex

This is an interesting post to me. Over the past 12 years I went "up through the ranks" in terms of progressively faster cars. I started off in '99 autoXing and HPDE's with a front driver, a '98 Acura Integra Type R. It was a fantastic car (particularly to learn on), and I wish I still had it. I then moved to a 350Z...more powerful, RWD, and much heavier. After that, I switched to an '03 Z06, which was a quantum leap in speed around the track vs. the 350Z. I bought a miata last fall with the intention of keeping both it and the Z06. I planned to use both on the street and track, depending on what I felt like for any given event.

Comparing the experience of driving these two cars is difficult. They are so very different. What I generally tell people is that I like them both equally, but for different reasons. The power, sound, and speed of the vette are irreplaceable. Digging out of turn with back end out and the long tubes screaming is amazing. When you want to pass someone, you can usually blow by them at will in just about any type of turn or situation. It's always easy to find clear track, and I almost never had anyone in my mirrors (maybe a Radical, sports racers, etc.). Mechanical grip with 305 Hoosiers is mental. Throttle control is absolutely critical in that car, and I really learned a ton about driving with it.

My 1.6L miata puts down about 95 whp. The throttle is an on/off switch. You more or less turn in and stand on it. It goes through turns really quick, and you have to steer, but your feet are removed from the equation quite a bit. I don't necessarily think it takes less skill to drive fast, just different skills. It is much more difficult to cleanly pass people, since they are always in a faster car. In my last event at CMP we did a blended group with students. I ended up passing students in 350Z, E92 M3, 911, etc. It was really challenging, because I really had to think ahead. When you're out in a fast group though, you have watch your mirrors constantly, something I wasn't at all used to.

I think the Z06 is great to learn about car control and vehicle dynamics, while the miata seems to teach you race craft and how to eek every bit of performance out of what you have. The miata also forces consistency, since you just don't have any power to cover up mistakes. When you blow a turn, you are just completely dead in the water. In general, things happen much slower in the miata. Fast turns in particular feel slightly less hairy than they do in the vette, since the world isn't rushing by so quickly!

I do agree with what others have said though...if you can drive a vette really well, you won't have any trouble jumping into the miata and quickly getting a handle on it. I don't believe the same is true the other way around. The jolt of going from 100 hp to 400 or 500 hp is dramatic, and demands new skills, particularly throttle control. Also, my vette weighed about 3150 lbs., and my miata is 1,000 lbs. less. The vette is a much larger mass that wants to continue in a given direction. You have to really be aware of, and try to balance the weight shifts on each corner of the car when entering turns. Weight transfer in the miata feels much less dramatic.

One thing you have to get used to with a miata is letting go of your pride a bit. Some people underestimate this issue, but the reality is most of us are competitive and want to be fast. You won't be setting the fastest lap time of the day in the miata, and people will be passing you...a lot. You have to be able to stomach that, which can be problematic, particularly for novices. That said, it's really fun to pass a car with 3 to 5 times the power, and brings a sense of accomplishment.

On the street, it's simply no contest. I enjoy the miata much more. I can drive it on a country road and toss it around. It only takes up 2/3 of the lane width, and it's easy to get the back end moving around. You don't have to break the speed limit to have fun. The vette is good for on-ramps and blasts to 60mph, but the limits are so high that you're constantly risking a ticket. It's wide, super low, and has ridiculous mechanical grip. It's much harder to safely toss around on public roads.

I owned both cars for a while, but in the end I sold the vette last fall because it was sitting and I never drove it. It was too much car to exploit on the street, and too expensive (for my budget) to risk hurting on the track. Since I go to the track so infrequently these days (busy with work and a 1 yr. old), it just didn't make sense to have it depreciating in my garage. We decided to use the money from the sale to remodel our house instead. I also couldn't justify hacking it up to make it as safe as I wanted/needed it to be, whereas I had no qualms about cutting the miata up to put a rollbar and race seat/bracing in.

Finally, the economics of the two cars are dramatically different. Four brand new track tires for the miata are $400...and they last forever. Brake pads are $150...and they last forever. Brake discs are $40 per corner...and last forever. Because of the feather weight, it is super easy on consumables. Oil changes require a quart or two less oil. I can run a whole track day in the Miata on 10 gallons of fuel. Insurance is a couple hundred bucks a year. I don't bother with taping the front end and rocker panels to prevent rock chips. I don't worry about my windshield getting pitted. On the street I don't worry about where I park or door dings. Finally, if I stuff the car into a wall I can walk away without any substantial financial impact. Then I can go out and buy a replacement the next week, swap some parts over to that car, and get back on the track.

In the end for me, the miata was the logical and responsible choice for where I'm currently at in my life. I have just as much fun with it, but fun in a different way. I undoubtedly miss my Z06 at times, but not enough to justify owning it. Besides, I always get bored with cars after a few years, and I was ready for a change of pace!

ptindall

I feel a bit childish in saying this, but it is my pride and competitiveness that keeps me in the Z06 and has me currently making it faster. I agree 100% that slower cars can be just as fun, fact is part of my motivation is wanting to be a big dog.









As soon as I bought my corvette I realized the limits are way to high to have fun with this car on the street. I immediately started to look for a way to get onto the race track and I'm so glad I did. Honestly, I've never had "fun" driving my Corvette on the street because I'm not crazy enough to use it's full abilities on the street. It's also why I don't understand all these guys who mod the hell out of these cars and never go to the track. WTF do you need $2,000+ coilovers for on the street?




That's where I'm at now. I'm starting to make the car fast enough where it's kinda unsafe with stock belts and no cage. But it's just too nice of a car to tear apart.

95jersey

One thing that hasn't been discussed about driving the Miata is the lack of threshold braking. Turning and apexing around a road course is one thing. But to only have to brake from 75-80mph to say 45mph is cake walk, and allows you to concentrate more on the turn in and correct apexing, which could make a novice in a Miata quicker around a turn than a vette. There is so much LESS going on, you get to focus on the turns.

In a Corvette, especially a C6Z, when I come down the front strait of WG, NJMP and other at 150-160mph and have to brake down to say 50mph without losing momentum for the turn, while still trying to focus on turn in and the correct apexing, requires a HELL of a lot more talent and practice.

My close to 500whp car accelerates like a beast from HELL, having your foot on the floor to the last possible moment topping 150mph with the turn only 50 feet away (at least it seems that way), then BAM, throw out the anchor, the car barely has enough grip, it wants to go in 10 different directions, the experience is wild (more so than acceleration) and the fence is still coming at you at 120mph. Your trying to keep the thing in a strait line, the back end wants to move around and you have to know when to let of the brakes, apex and get back on the throttle with 500whp. I am almost breathless just writing about it!!

I realized I would personally not like a Miata, not because of acceleration or handling, but because the thrill of extreme threshold braking at the VERY LAST MOMENT from 155mph to 50 in a 3150lb car is more of a rush than ANY other part of road racing. Acceleration is my time to relax and take a breather, I get no thrill from it. Cornering is OK, you just have to get through the corner correctly and fast enough, but braking ah, braking is where the FUN REALLY IS!!!

Bill32

Nothing wrong with Miatas but it depends on what you like to drive.

I've did 3, 1 1/2 hour sessions in one at the 25 Hours of ThunderHill and felt it was pretty boring after 2 laps. But that's just me.

redtopz

Nice post JRitt . I have just as much fun racing in our 130 hp 1984 mazda rx7 Lemons car as I do in my vette. However, I think the vette in the end takes more skill to drive at the limit because of the pedal control you must have for both the brakes and throttle. A low hp car just won't teach you those skills. Plus once you have driven race tracks at corvette speeds, it makes driving anything slower feel easier and less scary. I also agree that a miata would be a great way to learn racecraft and consistency on the track because you really have to earn a pass and mistakes will really slow you down.

Short-Throw

Jersey,

I completely understand where you're coming from and agree on the fun factor between driving a Z06 and a Miata is no contest. Believe me I get it especially jumping from the C6.R Beast to the Miata and back again. Talk about polar opposites.

The Z06 is a fun car to race or HPDE.
The Miata is only a fun car to race.

Here's the part that most people don't want to put effort into.

The Miata requires weight transfer just like the Z06, but the input must be so precise. Once mastered, take that precision, apply it to the Z06 and you will 100% be a faster and safer driver.

I can't stand practicing in the Miata, I hate it! It has however made me a better driver.

We have a member at Autobahn who holds the track record (for open-wheel) in his Pro Formula Mazda. He was able to achieve that goal by practicing in his Miata. Guess what? He hates driving it too!

The struggle with mastering a higher HP car is being patient enough to learn how to deliver input in the smallest of doses. The Miata teaches that.

Mike

JRitt@essex

It's funny that I, a brake guy, didn't talk too much about brakes in my post. Maybe I'm just sick of talking brakes.
I agree with Jersey on the braking aspect...much more exciting in the vette. I haven't been on a big track yet, but I think my 1.6L miata tops out at something like 120mph? I'd probably have time to eat a sandwich on the front straight at Road Atlanta. The vette more or less just keeps pulling on just about any racetrack straight. Downshifting, braking, and turn in is a bit more challenging (and fun) for sure.

I'm still braking far too early in the miata. The thing just doesn't gain or shed much speed!

drivinhard

I like watching the spec miata video's from VIR, where they have to dig out of Oak Tree and then down the backstraight. I have seen guys grab a copy of War and Peace, check voicemail, clean their dash vents, etc

I helped a friend put a cam'd LS6 in his '99 miata, if you can drive that thing fast you can drive anything fast.

Short-Throw

Absolutely! With the slower speed and the lighter weight it's hard to program your brain to stay into the throttle longer and brake later. It's been my nemesis as well.

Mike

RX-Ben

Yeah - driving a C5 (at least my lowly TTB base model) for me is all about dealing with inertia and torque. I find braking to be uneventful unless I've come in too hot and there is oversteer (and then need to deal with correcting the associated inertia). This was even the case last year as I did nearly all my events w/o ABS as the stupid EBCM would go on the fritz ONLY at a racetrack, usually just before the first session of the weekend, and then return back to normal on the drive home or the next day.

First event of the year coming up - NASA TT at NJMP Lighting. Woohoo!