travisnd

I installed a Firefox 10lb setup in another race car... seemed like a nice kit. The car already had one nozzle pointing at the driver's feet/legs and one that would spray the back/top of the motor.

After reading over this thread. I figured we could discuss which systems we're using and how the nozzles are arranged?

I'm considering a nozzle on the engine, one or two on myself, and one on top of the trans/diff. It seems like most Corvette fires start when a trans or diff cooler line leaks or breaks around the hot exhaust. I don't have trans or diff coolers, but mounting a nozzle in the floor tub directly over the trans/diff would be easy.

fatbillybob

Just becareful how many nozzles you have. Too many = low water pressure. In my situation I need ballast. I'm thinking of adding one tank for me separate from one for the car. The smartest thing that has been done in factory vette racing since the dale earnhardt fire was the addition of the metal rear wall and rearview mirror camera to sparate off the fuel cell area. Someone would have to ask LGMotorsports for how Boris Said got a little burnt in the LG car when the exhaust melted a fuel line I think at LBGP as far as where the fire came into the car. But the plastic tub is not a good fire barrier to me. Also, I bet the aero of a C5/6R cockpit is better than the parachute we have with open back end. You can see old vintage pictures on Pbug 911's with 4 holes cut in the rear lexan glass to let the air out. Later in windtunnel testing we find that encouraging air to flow out also lowers the pressure for air to come in increasing aero drag! Bad! So I bet a metal back wall like C6R is a win win for safety and speed.

travisnd

A guy in GA has a LS1 FD RX-7 setup for ST2/TTS and he build a lexan/plexi rear wall to seperate himself from the rear fo the car.

Last C5

Mmmmm? My thinking was that I want a system that will handle four nozzles - one inboard of each wheel. The rears could handle any fuel leaks and the fronts could handle any fires set off by the rotors. My thinking may be a bit skewed right now after spending the winter replacing anything rubber or plastic under my car after an off track tour at Thunderhill last fall. I've never been too worried about an interior or engine fire. Maybe I'm missing something???

RX7 KLR

OMP has a six nozzle system, used in FIA rally cars where they need to cover the car, driver and passenger - although you know where you stand in rally, the instructions call for two nozzles to cover the drivers legs, while the passenger only gets one.

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/pro...asp?RecID=5625

We installed one and set if off just to see what it was like. http://www.youtube.com/user/SportsCa.../9/GNLxFnKUih8

Last C5

Thanks, that looks like just what I need to cover both ends of the spectrum. I wondered what setting one off would do and the video answers that question too.

fatbillybob

I'm surprised at how uneventful and small the AFFF coming out is. Thanks for posting the video link I remember reading your article in sportscar

MJM

Wow, that ain't much.

Just shows you that a 'fire system' only adds a few seconds, you still need a plan to get out quickly.

travisnd

Thanks for that link... looks like a nice setup.

BTW what's AFFF stand for?

MJM

Aqueous film-forming foam.

RacePro Engineering

If you are racing, the sanctioning bodies are quite specific about areas to be covered. For instance, if you have a 4-nozzle system, with SCCA, two MUST be aimed at the driver. The other 2 may either be BOTH on the motor compartment, or one on the motor, and one on the fuel cell area.

For driver ed events, etc, they do not seem to be so stringent.

Ed LoPresti

travisnd

Are the AFFF systems re-fillable? Does anyone use Halon anymore, or is most everyone using AFFF?

RacePro Engineering

Yes to both, except most racers are still using halon.

I would hate to see your thread degenerate into a "mine is better than yours" contest, which always seems to happen when various fire supression chemicals are the topic. Suffice to say, we use nothing but halon in any of our racers.

Ed

travisnd

Ed feel free to give your opinion on which is better than the other and why.... I'd like to learn. The one I put in my father's race car was a firefox system, but it wasn't Halon or AFFF, can't remember what it was.

I like the fact that the AFFF cleans up with water. In a non-catastrophic fire it'll be easy to clean the car up... or in a case where you might think you're on fire and activate the system etc.

Oh... and while you're at it could you recommend a master kill switch? Is one better than another? I posted a thread on this too.

travisnd

Ok.... seems to be a large price differential between systems. I'd like the following:

1. 4.0L (10lb) or more capacity
2. Mechanical actuation
3. 2 pull cables (one for the dash, one by the passenger side window for the safety folks to get at.
4. Steel tank is fine, no need for aluminum, slimline, or anything fancy.

OG Racing has this 4.0L Fire Sense system that meets my specs for $350 HERE



Discovery parts has this E.S.S. system that's 5.0L, but lacks dual pull cables and it's $510 HERE



Pegasus has this OMP 4.25L system with 2 pulls but it's $520 HERE




Why shouldn't I just buy the $350 Fire Sense one from OG? Is there something about the other two that justifies the $150+ more?

RacePro Engineering

Trying to isolate my opinion from facts, and in the broadest of terms, Halon knocks down the types of fires we have at the tracks. It is absolutely superior in that regard.

The argument is usually made that AFFF (for instance) is much more friendly to the environment (and to the driver's lungs, should he need to deploy.) As you point out, it is also easier to clean up in the case of a "false alarm".

On balance, if I am truly on fire, the cockpit is undoubtedly already filling with molecules that are much more virulent that Halon, and I am certainly not going to sit there long enough to savor the aroma. And as far as damage to the environment from a discharge of 5 pounds of Halon? Seriously??

The other compelling reason for us using Halon is WEIGHT. I do not believe this has changed in the past few years - the same volume of AFFF (for instance), compared to Halon, weighs approximately double.

-----------------------

Have not checked lately, but Summit Racing in Ohio used to carry the Flaming River products, and that company produces very nice cut-off switches.

Hope this helps,
Ed

RacePro Engineering

The OMP unit is superb, kind of like the Flaming River cut-off switches. Some of that difference in price comes from the superior quality. UNfortunately, the other part of that price difference comes from the exchange rate between the Euro and US Dollar.

Do not overlook the used market! Good fire systems stay charged for years, and their aluminum plumbing does not corrode. As long as the actuator cable(s) are not crimped, great values are to be had.

Ed

travisnd

Thanks for your input Ed... I don't much care about the environment I mean we race cars and most of us drive trucks that suck gas

fatbillybob

I don't want to start a halon AFFF pissing contest either but here are some +/-'s of AFFF or Halon. The choice is only these 2. There are some other propietary AFFF like systems that make additional claims that have different tradenames but they are so important that I forget what they are.

ESS system is very cheaply made compared to 90% of the other systems. Little fit and finish items are the problem like burs on the metal, lack of chamfer of some parts and the super cheap nozzles that look like a fitting plug was cut to provide a source to direct and fan the spray. Compare that to a DIEST fire nozzle and you'll instantly see what I mean. But it has one HUGE advantage that no one else has to my knowledge and that is user refillability in the paddock! It does not require certification or recertification because utility can be verified by sealed CO2 cartridge and weight of the full tank. So if you accidentally blow your tank you can still race. Refills are under $45 bucks! There are less moving parts that are exposed to the HALON or the AFFF which can foul what needs to work.

AFFF pressurized systems have certs from the maker. You know the fill level by the weight. You know they still have pressure in them because the tank has a pressure gage on them. But wait! Big problem is that the pressure gauage can fail and stick in the high pressure zone because the AFFF is a water solution and corrodes the guage. Then if you have lost pressure you think you are OK and you got nothing! My safecraft system failed in this exact mode and I got no support from Safecraft. But wait! there is still more possible problem with AFFF systems. In every tank there is a "flop tube". If the flop tube hardens or falls off then your system will not siphon AFFF to your nozzles. This is a real problem and I remember about 15 years back when OMP stopped supplying fire tanks in the USA because of a defect in this tube. So if you are upsidedown from a rollover you got no protection. AFFF systems that are pressurized can only be serviced and inspected for these issues by the maker and that means you send it back. These pressure systems are dated and 5 years is the lifespan. You either buy a new one or ship it back at big bucks for a recert which includes these new parts. You can lo-buck lo-teck home check an AFFF tank by turning it upsidedown and listening to the tube weight "tink" the other side of the tank. Then you might assume the tube is intact and working. You can check your pressure in the morning then later in the heat of the day to prove that the guage moves and assume the pressure is correct. A guage that fails to change with temperature is for sure a dead guage or mispressured tank. AFFF is a pain to clean-up because everythign is wet and soapy. The wetness helps to prevent re-ignition of a fire once put out and decreases heat for re-ignition too.

Halon is a hazzardous product, ozone layer...yada yada and these also have 5 yr life and is even bigger bucks to have recertifed. Halon is awesome but you can't breath it. It takes out all the air in your cockpit. If it is windy it does not work as well. Halon does nothing to prevent re-ignition but has the best clean-up because it leaves no traces.

Both systems if you push the button your race is over for the weekend.

Once I had a fire due to electrical issues and it wasted one day but I could race on Sunday once I fixed it because my fire was not bad. ESS is the only game in town as user rechargable AFFF foam. Also AFFF foam works on all 3 parts of the Fire Triangle. Halon only works on one side binding with Oxygen and choking a fire. Some say if halon is the ultimate on aircraft then I want it in my racecar. But those are two different environments. Your mileage may vary...

travisnd

Crap... this is complicated... thanks for typing that all out. Which do you have in your car now?