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So that's really important info LFZ and greatly appreciated.
You are saying that G meter is just showing a brief flash of a peak number, but it's not sustained on R888s even through a sustained long corner executed well? The sustained number is closer to 1.1-1.2 which is well within the limits of the OEM system?
Well that would appear to be EXTREMELY good news if you have an LS3 if completely true and would make me VERY happy!
There are guys that race AND work on cars for a living. They have blown up many engines during their quests for the track records. They have learned how to plumb the lubrication systems for longevity but they don't give that information away for free. My suggestion would be find a race shop that has a proven record on how to plumb the accusump if you chose not to go dry sump. There is a way to plumb the accusump that keeps the engine alive. Hint: parts of the engine require oil pickup faster than others.
There are guys that race AND work on cars for a living. They have blown up many engines during their quests for the track records. They have learned how to plumb the lubrication systems for longevity but they don't give that information away for free. My suggestion would be find a race shop that has a proven record on how to plumb the accusump if you chose not to go dry sump. There is a way to plumb the accusump that keeps the engine alive. Hint: parts of the engine require oil pickup faster than others.
Just wondering, and the company that SELLS THEM doesn't know or tell anyone these secrets?
There are guys that race AND work on cars for a living. They have blown up many engines during their quests for the track records. They have learned how to plumb the lubrication systems for longevity but they don't give that information away for free. My suggestion would be find a race shop that has a proven record on how to plumb the accusump if you chose not to go dry sump. There is a way to plumb the accusump that keeps the engine alive. Hint: parts of the engine require oil pickup faster than others.
I appreciate the input. Unfortunately a company that does race a lot said the Accusump doesn't do anything! In fact they weren't even trying to up-sell me, they told me to sell the car and buy something else.
Fortunately, I just want to have fun and not hurt my car. I'm no racer any longer ( l raced motorcycles, not cars)
I'd love to get some input on the windage tray. They seem to have a lot of evidence it works quite well. That seems like a really good solution for a guy like me. I'm sort of surprised that others have not experimented with it.
Just wondering, and the company that SELLS THEM doesn't know or tell anyone these secrets?
Froggy, that company also sells the electric solenoid that craps out. They have a good basic product but not all engines have the same architecture. I have run one for years on my LS6 with good success. Accusump has not raced all types of engines. I am sending you a PM.
The main problem isn't with oil sloshing to one side of the pan, it's the oil not draining out of the head back to the pan fast enough during sustained high lateral loads. It's a design issue with all engines subjected to sustained high laterial loads but yes the LS may be more susceptible than others. Plus Corvettes tend to have wider tires than most so capable of higher lateral loads even with street tires. The oil is eventually pumped out exposing the pickup and it starts sucking air and the oil pressure goes down. I have an LS1 in my road race car and it does it above 1.2g's. Watch the oil gauge (left most gauge) or "Oil P" data on right in below video especially in left turns. It even does it during right turns but not as bad. Luckily oil pressure doesn't go below 40psi but it still needs a dry sump. My car has lots of aero and runs on Hoosier 245 A7's (2775lb comp weight and 300whp).
Unfortunately, if you want to run anything sticker than street tires on a Corvette, it should have a dry sump.
The main problem isn't with oil sloshing to one side of the pan, it's the oil not draining out of the head back to the pan fast enough during sustained high lateral loads. It's a design issue with all engines subjected to sustained high laterial loads but yes the LS may be more susceptible than others. Plus Corvettes tend to have wider tires than most so capable of higher lateral loads even with street tires. The oil is eventually pumped out exposing the pickup and it starts sucking air and the oil pressure goes down. I have an LS1 in my road race car and it does it above 1.2g's. Watch the oil gauge (left most gauge) or "Oil P" data on right in below video especially in left turns. It even does it during right turns but not as bad. Luckily oil pressure doesn't go below 40psi but it still needs a dry sump. My car has lots of aero and runs on Hoosier 245 A7's (2775lb comp weight and 300whp).
Unfortunately, if you want to run anything sticker than street tires on a Corvette, it should have a dry sump.
There was an engine build here on CF that showed drain hoses from the valve cover (I think) back down to the pan IIRC. Can somebody find that thread....I can't find it. I think it was posted within the last year at the most. There was also a video of the car running and the oil pressure gauge was dead steady while cornering.
Would draining the excess oil in the valve covers more quickly back to the pan be a simple answer to this issue for us wanna be racers just doing HPDE??
The main problem isn't with oil sloshing to one side of the pan, it's the oil not draining out of the head back to the pan fast enough during sustained high lateral loads. It's a design issue with all engines subjected to sustained high laterial loads but yes the LS may be more susceptible than others. Plus Corvettes tend to have wider tires than most so capable of higher lateral loads even with street tires. The oil is eventually pumped out exposing the pickup and it starts sucking air and the oil pressure goes down. I have an LS1 in my road race car and it does it above 1.2g's. Watch the oil gauge (left most gauge) or "Oil P" data on right in below video especially in left turns. It even does it during right turns but not as bad. Luckily oil pressure doesn't go below 40psi but it still needs a dry sump. My car has lots of aero and runs on Hoosier 245 A7's (2775lb comp weight and 300whp).
Unfortunately, if you want to run anything sticker than street tires on a Corvette, it should have a dry sump.
I brought that up the guys that sell the windage tray and they said that half the problem is oil getting stuck up in the cylinder head, but the other part of the problem is oil moving away from the pickup tube. Also their kit has a crank scraper that puts oil back down in the pan as well. Here is a chart of oil pressure being plotted around a Race Course.b the graph of the oil pressure varying a lot is stock and the one that is steady has the baffle.
The main problem isn't with oil sloshing to one side of the pan, it's the oil not draining out of the head back to the pan fast enough during sustained high lateral loads. It's a design issue with all engines subjected to sustained high laterial loads but yes the LS may be more susceptible than others. Plus Corvettes tend to have wider tires than most so capable of higher lateral loads even with street tires. The oil is eventually pumped out exposing the pickup and it starts sucking air and the oil pressure goes down. I have an LS1 in my road race car and it does it above 1.2g's. Watch the oil gauge (left most gauge) or "Oil P" data on right in below video especially in left turns. It even does it during right turns but not as bad. Luckily oil pressure doesn't go below 40psi but it still needs a dry sump. My car has lots of aero and runs on Hoosier 245 A7's (2775lb comp weight and 300whp).
Unfortunately, if you want to run anything sticker than street tires on a Corvette, it should have a dry sump.
I seem to recall there was a forum member that did or had some modifications done to the head (not tubes) that facilitated it draining oil better , sorry vague, but I never had the issue (ls6) so I did not bookmark it.
I seem to recall there was a forum member that did or had some modifications done to the head (not tubes) that facilitated it draining oil better , sorry vague, but I never had the issue (ls6) so I did not bookmark it.
I gave up trying to find the thread I'm looking for...he had 3 tubes (stainless steel braided hoses I think) that came out from either the bottom of the side of the valve cover or the actual head was machined to drain the excess oil out and then plumbed back to the pan IIRC.
Please post a link to that engine build if somebody should find it.
TIA
I talked to the guy that did the head drain system (link below) and the setup still had 15psi oil pressure drops but didn't go below 40psi. They also run 100UTQG tires so don't go much above 1.2G's. There is a lot of work required to duplicate this setup. At that point, should just install a dry sump system like Aviaid LS-A kit (keeps air conditioning) and not worry about it anymore.
I talked to the guy that did the head drain system (link below) and the setup still had 15psi oil pressure drops but didn't go below 40psi. They also run 100UTQG tires so don't go much above 1.2G's. There is a lot of work required to duplicate this setup. At that point, should just install a dry sump system like Aviaid LS-A kit (keeps air conditioning) and not worry about it anymore.
Graphs showing LS3 wet sump oil pressure. First as stock and then with the Improved Racing Windage Tray graphed against G forces.
This system manages oil pressure correctly up to 1.4 Gs (the most this car can maintain), there is a 2% hp gain, it adds only 2#, takes 5-8 hours to install I'm guessing, and st less than $400.
If all true, THIS is the solution that we should have all been sold.
Graphs showing LS3 wet sump oil pressure. First as stock and then with the Improved Racing Windage Tray graphed against G forces.
This system manages oil pressure correctly up to 1.4 Gs (the most this car can maintain), there is a 2% hp gain, it adds only 2#, takes 5-8 hours to install I'm guessing, and st less than $400.
If all true, THIS is the solution that we should have all been sold.
Can you clarify what I'm reading on the oil pressure data log?....If I'm reading it correctly, the windage tray system improved oil pressure by a max of about 13 psi during worst case oil pressure drop. Is that how you're reading the oil pressure data log?
Under worst case cornering, it appears the car never went below 29 psi while stock.....but I don't know how to translate if you can run 6000 rpm at 30 psi safely. I'm just wondering if this specific car had an issue to begin with or the windage tray was just added insurance. Looks like a 2 year spread between the first data log and the second data log.
For the cost of doing it, it would definitely be worth it if it keeps pressures above the 40 psi mark with no other modifications. I just wonder if the car was still stock after the windage tray or if other internal motor mods had been done to help with oil control and pressure.
I think your point is valid, but I think what is important is that oil pressure remains steady, which is where it should be. When PSI is dropping even if only 13 psi, you are sucking some air and damage can be occurring right then.
The psi drops seem more related to the length of time of the turn, than the RPMs of the engine.
To top it off, I've looked in to it more and I think it's an easy install on the Vette. 4-5 hours max.
I think your point is valid, but I think what is important is that oil pressure remains steady, which is where it should be. When PSI is dropping even if only 13 psi, you are sucking some air and damage can be occurring right then.
The psi drops seem more related to the length of time of the turn, than the RPMs of the engine.
To top it off, I've looked in to it more and I think it's an easy install on the Vette. 4-5 hours max.
I don't have dyno numbers to prove that the crank scraper really improved hp 2.5% as they claim.
I don't have before and after oil pressure readings from the track to prove that this mod really improves the oil starvation on the track, that LS engines are known for. In fact, I'm not certain the tires I run, the R888s (I see 1.52Gs on my little meter but I'm told that's just a spike), are even enough tire to have caused an issue before these parts were installed.
I just did this mod as cheap insurance and the small power bump from reduced parasitic drag is a nice bonus. I have tracked my car a fair number of times but all on 1 small tight track. Before this mod I was flat scared to take it to a large Superspeedway that was ran counterclockwise due to oil starvation concerns. This should be plenty of oil pressure protection for running any nice sticky treaded tires I can get my hands on, but not enough for properly driven new Hoosiers. Hopefully I can get on a big boy track after the new year.
What I can tell you is install really isn't that bad. It took a buddy and I about 6 hours to install but rarely was more than 1 of us working. We just removed the entire front subframe out of the way.
The parts and instructions were beautiful and I can say nothing bad about the Improved Racing parts. Everything just bolted right on. Since you remove the steel stamped OEM windage tray, there was a couple of pound of weight savings. I also know that the new crank scraper is way more rigid than the OEM part so I also have gained some block rigidity which isn't a bad thing.
I'd say this part should ALWAYS be included on an engine build and if you want to track your wet sump LS engine with any sticky tires you should also add in that case.
I do sort of wish I had bought some lowered steel engine mounts from Hinson or somebody as we were literally right there and could have added them in just 3 more minutes.
I would recommend a good mechanical gauge and a dedicated low oil pressure light. My light and Autometer mechanical gauge will show a pressure loss while factory gauge (and data logging with HPtuners) will not show it.
09-14-2016, 01:23 PM
