Bill Dearborn

Was instructing a C level student in an 08 BMW M3 V8. I had just gotten him moved up to the B level and we were cranking around the track at a pretty good rate. I had been working with him to brake later going into T1 (The "90") as he was braking around the 400 ft mark going into T1. This time he was running about 130 mph and hit the brake at about the 350 mark going down hill. That is when he said "No Brakes" (later found out the brake hose pulled out of the left front caliper banjo fitting). My first thought was Oh Sxxx and that wall at the far end of the run off area just got a hell a lot bigger. Then I just said "Spin It" and he reacted almost instantly and turned the car hard right. We spun a couple of times before we left the track surface and then spun once more in the run off area before nudging the wall backwards. Some time during the spinning he pulled the parking brake which locked the rear wheels and I felt the car slowing as we slid the last few feet into the wall. All told the damage came to a broken right tail light lens and a wrinkled rear fascia. I had had visions of going to the hospital for an extended stay while spinning and he was thinking about how expensive it was going to be so we were both elated.

Later at lunch I noticed my hand started shaking a little.

What amazed me is it actually worked!! I had heard other drivers saying it worked for them but that was the first time I had been in a car that had a massive brake failure.

Bill

johninar

Glad you're both okay..... scary stuff

Greywolfe

Thanks for sharing. That is a scary thought waiting to brake late and then... nothing. It seems to be more than a rare occurance also....

Interesting about the spin. Makes sense to scrub off as much speed as possible as long as you don't head in a worse direction.

An my neighbors are always asking me why I am working on my brakes all the time, lol.

dvandentop

damn could have been alot worse glad you guys are ok!

larryfs

your lucky it didn't roll over a few times.

I'm thinking, if he was able to make it spin, could he have made the corner ?? The cars are always capable of alot more than we think.

Bill Dearborn

Larry, how have you been doing? You missed a cold but great weekend. I have thought about making the turn and we have been teaching extended braking zone techniques so you use more of the track and the corner to get slowed down. Supposedly he had half his brake capability left because the car has a split brake system. However, he said his foot was on the floor and the car sure didn't feel like it was slowing any. We only had fractions of a second to do something and I really didn't think we would slow enough if he drove the car through the turn and out into the run off area. I sure didn't want to hit that wall head on. I saw the spin as a way to scrub speed and didn't really think we would slow that much. Wonder if a Vettes parking brake would lock up the rear wheels at speed? I know the car was turned toward the T1 flagger when we went over the little berm at the edge of the track surface and dropped onto the runoff pavement as I was looking at him. If he had waited to brake until the 300 ft mark like I had been coaching him we might not have been so lucky.

Bill

RacePro Engineering

Hi Bill,

Glad to hear that you and your student are still in one piece! Fortunately, you had an advanced enough student to do exactly what you said! I was at the track today, shaking down our new winter project, but I shall save the stories for when I see you.

A couple of days ago, another SCCA racer and I were discussing the pros and cons of replacing the old gravel traps (like the one that lived at the end of the front straight), with the paved run-off areas. I am certain that, IN MOST CASES, where a driver simply misses his braking point, and runs wide, that the run-off area is a welcome change.

However, in a case like you describe, where something OUTSIDE THE CAR is needed for rapid deceleration, it would be nice to still have one of those pits for which to aim.

Best,
Ed

AU N EGL

Wholly Chit Bill. Great job and thax for sharing. Glad you guys are OK.

larryfs

that's the problem with putting your life in someone elses mechanical skills. who really knows how often he inspected his car, or brake hoses.....

Bills Z06

Hope you brought an extra pair of underwear! Glad you guys are ok!

Bill Dearborn

Not sure a potential failure would have been visible. He had just inspected everything. He was running a new set of Carbotech pads and new two piece rotors. The hose pulled out of the crimped end of the banjo fitting. Could have just been a bad crimp that finally let go after 14 track days. 1200 feet before he had solid brakes when braking for T11 then the next time he hit the pedal it went to the floor.

Bill

sothpaw2

That's crazy! Does anyone have a pic of this type of design--is this at the caliper end or the brake line end of the flexible SS line? Would hope you could pic this up as a looseness in the connection.

Hat_Trick_Hokie

Wow, wild story, I'm glad to hear everyone is alright. Thanks for sharing.

Bill Dearborn

He had stock rubber hoses on the car. I only got a quick look at the end of the tubing end of the banjo but it looked like the hose just pushed out of it.

Bill

Bill Dearborn

The only time I had a failure like this was close to 50 years ago when I was driving my 55 Chevy and a rusted brake line under the floor boards broke. Back then there was only one brake circuit and my pedal truly went to the floor and I had to use the emergency brake (as it was known then) to stop the car. What does the pedal feel like on a two circuit car? Does it really go all the way to te floor or does the driver just think that because the pedal travel increases significantly. Next time I bleed the brakes I think I am going to do a test to see what happens. I will have the car on the lift with the engine running at a fair speed and the car in gear and while the rear tires are turning I will have a helper release the bleed valve on one of the front calipers just before I hit the brake and clutch. The rear wheel on that same side should stop turning even though the pedal sinks toward the floor.

I have been thinking about this quite a bit since the incident. I don't know what my student felt with his foot but maybe there was enough brake to slow the car without spinning it. There just wasn't any time to try more than one thing. At the speed we were going if the car didn't slow we had a total of 3.7 seconds before we hit the wall. That meant a final decision had to be made within a second.

Bill

ScaryFast

Wow, that's a horrifying experience. It's definately a tough call with only milliseconds to react, glad it worked out.

Thinking about it further, I assume the additional paved run off made this possible and clearly saved your bacon. However, often it could cause more problems if the off track surface is grass or gravel. That's the most common way to roll a car, especially if there's any drop-off at trackside.

In a worst case scenario, if impact could not have been avoided, hitting the wall head on would be the best way, as there is by far the largest amount of car between you and the wall. The car would have been totalled, but hopefully driver and passenger would have been ok.

Another option could have been a downshift, although that could lock the wheels and potentially make the car unstable rather than slow it down. I used that once in a FWD car and it worked out ok, I expect it would cause a RWD car to spin.

John Shiels

Heard they were a few smash ups there. Glad you are A OK!

John Shiels

Looking at the Ebrake pads and then looking at two rear tires the they won't hold anything at speed. If they did it would be a split second till they were gone.

John Shiels

yep they could be letting the caliper hang or tug it while doing a brake job or even not install it right. Jumping in a car to do a track event is

I-gotta-Novetta

Hmmm. And me just 4 days away from the 3balls, 10/10ths event at Mid-O. In my '08 BMW M3 V8(:. At least I will know what to do! I wonder if the stability management system was off-mite be hard to spin otherwise. Of course having no brakes mite trump that system.