froggy47

I bought a lot of this at a "closeout" price, I don't remember the vendor & I am not really having a beef with whoever it was. They should know what they sell, but I know they don't actually use every product they sell. I did ask the vendor if it was dot3/4 fluid and they said yes, but it has no DOT rating on the bottle. So I should have been more careful.

I do the ranger method of clutch fluid "freshening" and have alsways used Wilwood 570 or the Ford fluid.

Saturday I did the usual & had a Sunday BMWCCA autox. They pedal felt a little bit stiffer, but not enough to really call it a problem. Did 6 instructor runs (hot laps) at about 80% to learn the course (before we take students out) and on the last lap my clutch pedal stuck down a little.

I pulled off and opened the resevoir and the fluid was BLACK. That was the end of the day for my car, I was able to drive it home after it cooled down, it has obviously boiled.

I sucked it out & did the pedal push method a few times & put different fluid in. I will have to drive a few days & do an event to see if damage was done.

Here is a video that shows the color & procedure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIgzL...dLiXRD3JBivwbL

Fast fwd to 3:55 and it will go on to show the fluid color the resulted after 6 easy laps & the name of the product.

Hope this helps someone, I know a few guys scooped up this fluid like I did.



If the vendor who sells this would like to step up and reimburse me, that would be nice, but I'm really just posting to make sure anyone who has it doesn't use it. Maybe use it to start a campfire or such.

brkntrxn

That bottle shows DOT3 in the video. I never use anything but synthetic DOT4.

PaConehead

Froggy,
If the material you're referring to is what is shown in your video clip, it appears to be clearly marked DOT 3. Even so, I won't expect that you should a problem so quickly with it in you clutch reservoir under AX conditions - but I've been wrong before. Thanks for the heads-up.

froggy47

Guys, it's the Forodo that has no label of DOT anything. Not the Prestone.




Come on, pay attention.

It's at 4:00 on the clip.

Gray Ghost GS

Based on the color of the bottle and label of the Ferodo brake fluid you used in the video, this is what you installed:

Ferodo Formula Racing Brake Fluid

Ferodo developed this brake fluid for use in the extreme temperature conditions of competition racing.

It has a dry boiling point higher than 572° F (300° C). This fluid is neither DOT 4 or 5.1

Ferodo Formula racing brake fluid is not recommended for normal road use.

Did you completely flush your brake system when using this fluid? If not, cross-contamination may have resulted in the problem.

2002rich

Synthetic brake fluid doesn't mix with non synthetic and this is your problem.

Be thankful you didn't do this to your brake system

froggy47

Link to Fedoro web site

http://.fehttp://wwwderalmogul.com/e...+Brake+Fluids/

Copy & paste from link.

Ferodo offers two brake fluids formulated specifically for high performance and racing: Ferodo DOT 5.1 for high performance and Ferodo Formula for racing use.

These brake fluids contain polyalkylene glycol ether and other esters and should be handled by experienced mechanics only. Anyone working with these brake fluids needs to adhere to the following health warning:

So it's glycol based. It's not 5.0 which is silicone based and does not mix with glycol.

I think some people get silicone and synthetic mixed up.

This should have worked AFAIK. It did not.

froggy47

Here is a link to the wiki on brakes fluid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_fluid

DOT 3,4,and 5.1 are glycol based. May be SYNTHETIC or not

DOT 5.0 is silicone based.

RX-Ben

Discoloration is usually due to friction material getting past the seal in the tob/slave. Why do you think this is a failure on the part of the fluid? Are you sure the slave is ok?

2002rich

You are correct, I thought it was silicone based.

Gray Ghost GS

This statement, which they wrote in BOLD letters, is also from their website:

DO NOT MIX FERODO FORMULA WITH ANY OTHER BRAKE FLUID. THE BRAKE SYSTEM SHOULD BE COMPLETELY DRAINED BEFORE ADDING FERODO FORMULA FOR THE FIRST TIME.

WARNING:
* Usage restricted to experienced mechanics only

froggy47

Hi RX-Ben,

Thanks for posting.

I used the same 2 fluids (Ford & Wilwood) for 8 years on 2 cars.

Zero problems with clutch pedal stuck down.

I picked up the Ferodo & just used it for the first time on Sat as I did the clutch slave fluid exchange (commonly called Ranger method).

Took 6 easy autox runs sunday & clutch stuck down & fluid turned black.

Cooled off car & drove home clutch pedal ok.

Did Ranger method 3 times on resevoir & fluid is clear again.

It's 99.99999% probably that the Ferodo fluid was not up to the temp. range needed for clutch fluid to operate correctly (IMO) and that it's not compatible with the seals in the clutch slave (blackened fluid).

What do you think? I think the slave is back to ok as I got that fluid out FAST, I have an event Sat & will tell then. No Ferodo went in the brake system.

I know the theory about friction material getting past the slave seals, however, 6 easy autox runs with only an easy launch (no drag launches needed in autox) plus a single 1/2 shift each run don't add up to a lot of clutch friction material being flung around. It's more likely IMO that it's the seal "rubber compound" that got "attacked" chemically by the Ferodo & discolored the fluid.



As for the posting about racing vs. street use, that is a common disclaimer on many racing fluids. What they are saying is the fluid is not designed to sit in the car for 5 years & never be changed. It picks up more moisture than cheaper DOT3 fluids (by design) hence the warning.

Racing vs street comments serve no purpose and don't add info to the OP. When a car is driven hard, the fluids don't know if they are on a street or on a race track!

The theory about the fluids not being compatible may bear some discussion, as the clutch fluid was not flushed so some Wilwood 570 was mixed with some Fedoro. However they are both glycol based so far as I have determined. BTW to test this theory I mixed a small amout of the two fluids together in a plastic bottle to see what happened & there was nothing dramatic resulting.

It may be the European style fluid has some properties that are not compatible with American hydraulic seals. Even with a full flush I am not putting this in any of my cars.

As I stated in the OP, this is all just to let you guys who have bought it what happened & know to be careful.

JRitt@essex

Froggy,
I know we didn't sell you that fluid, but I sent a link to your post to my contact at Ferodo to see if he has any input (we are the North American Ferodo pad distributor).

I had my engineering mgr. take a look at your post. He doesn't think you boiled the fluid. It was his opinion that one of your clutch master cylinder seals likely went during all of the long-stroking during your bleed...the black color was from those seals.

Also, I want it to be crystal clear to everyone that this is an old Ferodo product. We are now selling their new product, Ferodo Super Formula, which is a DOT4 fluid. I was actually about to post a message about a spring special sale we're going to run on it when I saw your post. I don't want everyone thinking there is something wrong with the Ferodo brand, and especially not their new formulation!

I'll let you know when I hear from my Ferodo contact. Thanks.

PushinTheLimit

Just to back what JRitt@essex just said... I used the Ferodo Super Formula in my race car the last three events this past year running ST2 races at Nashville SS, Roebling Road and Road Atlanta and my brakes were fantastic. I was having soft pedal issues all year until I switched brake fluids and that cured my problem. I've found it to be good stuff.

froggy47

Hi JRitt,

Thanks for the post. Not trying to cause you or Ferodo any problems, but when something I use results in such a dramatic problem I feel I have to post it up to other forum members.

Tell your eng. manager that the problem occured BEFORE I did the Ranger cleaning process, so no it's not damage I did to seals by long stroking.

The reason I think it boiled is that the clutch pedal sticking down is a CLASSIC symptom of sub par clutch fluid on Vettes.

And I never put any in my brake system, so I have no opinion or info either way on how it would work there.

But I know what resulted in my clutch hydraulics & I'm not some noob who caused his own problem.

I've been wrenching on cars since the 60's.

Either A) it's not compatible with the seal material(s) in the Vette clutch hydraulic system or B) It results in some awful corrosive (to seals) mix when it touches our standard glycol DOT 3/4/5.1 fluids.



I will send anyone who is capable of lab testing an unopened bottle of this if they would like to contribute. It would be interesting to see the dry/wet boiling temps as well as any other properties that can be tested for. No dates on any of these bottles either.

A copy of the lab results would be posted here. Also anyone got an old clutch slave & want to try soaking the seal in this to see if it eats the seal will get a bottle.

JRitt@essex

Thanks Froggy. I totally understand. I just wanted to make clear which product was under discussion, and that as a forum sponsor we did not supply it to you (if we did, we certainly would make it right with you).

I think there are a number of variables at work here, and maybe the fluid was just compromised due to age, it was not sealed properly, etc. As you know, these fluids do absorb water over time, which is why old (opened) fluid should never be used. We always tell people to write the date they cracked the bottle on it with a sharpie and toss it after a couple of months if they haven't used it by then.

I'm also intimately familiar with the C5 clutch issue. I had my C5Z clutch stick to the floor on the last turn at Buttonwillow...which was loads of fun! I ended up having my mechanic replace just about everything and putting in a remote bleeder, because all of the other 'fixes' I researched seem to be a bit hit or miss.

I got an email from my guy at Ferodo...he is talking to his engineering dept. I'll see what he comes back with.

Thanks, and I hope you get to the bottom of it.

JRitt@essex

Thanks Aloha and Goldeneagle. I'll create another post on the special...don't want to hijack this any further!

froggy47

I guess I should add C) It was sitting on the vendors shelf for 10 years & he decided to blow it out the door at a below cost price, and maybe did not realize it was compromised by the years on the shelf in a plastic bottle.

doje

Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!

Sounds like your thread should be warning people against using 10 year old brake fluid - not brand bashing.

JRitt@essex

He wasn't trying to bash anyone or anything...he was just trying to make sure other people didn't do the same thing he did. We all look for deals on parts, and sometimes this stuff happens.