jawfixer

Nice video--after a few laps I would have let you pass me and then I would have dogged your a--for a while to get the same fun you had.lol

jvp

The assumption, of course, is that you could.

jas

Racingswh

You're way too kind. He is not a very good driver. Actually he is the type of driver that gives the GTR it's reputation for being easy to drive. He in many cases has no clue what the terms apex and track out even mean. He overslows the car into 4. He's weird middle on entry into 1. The reason he was fast is because the car is fairly fast. Certainly nothing he was doing was helping it to go any faster except pressing the accelerator down. Everything else is a mess.

A very well driven bone stock 2009 GTR from what I have seen is a 1:22-23 car at Summit Point Main. Your car is even faster. I can't see your lap timer so I don't know what you were running but with that traffic you had to contend with it's irrelevant.

That was my home track for a few years when racing with NASA MA so I am pretty familiar with it. I like it very much there. I have some suggestions that may help you to be even quicker if you would like?

cire96

JVP:
IMHO Both you and AU N Gel are equally correct. Failure to use the full line and "point and shoot" corner exit driving are often the stuff of high HP cars driven by folks who also haven't raced WTW - where the failure to use momentum will humble the uninnitiated and reward the underpowered who do use it.

If the car hooks up in second gear exiting corner #X and the corner can't be exited at a speed that isn't above second's "meat", then use second and get off the corner fast. Alternatively, if the corner can be negotiated (in it's entirety) at a speed that makes third the gear to use on exit, use it. Don't park it midcorner and use second on exit.

Regardless of the gear selected, generally the fast way around a corner is the widest arc that intersects the apex and stays on the pavement at entry and exit. That means using all the pavement.

Those two practices (the right exit gear and full track use) are the fast way around any track because they allow for the maximum use of momentum.
Cire

heavychevy

Agree, I have seen several videos of GT-R drivers driving poorly and still going fast, have a few myself where they completely lean on the electronics. There is a video of a guy running 2:06 at VIR and he misses half the apexes on the track.

However watching some videos of Leh Keen drive one, the thing lurches around all over the place, so it seems to encourage that type of driving. It promotes and responds to a different style of driving.

jvp

The question is: would he have been any better if there wasn't a grey Corvette in his mirror? I can't answer that; I honestly have no idea. He couldn't keep up with me after he waved me by because of his brakes. So I don't know if he'd have done any better without a mirror full of Corvette.

Sure. I'm always interested in hearing others' take on SPR. I can't always say I'll follow them, but I'm game to listen/read. Fire away!

jas

AU N EGL

I guess we all start that way. Muscling the car through corners vs allowing the momentum to work for us.

many many years ago, I had an instructor who raced a little momentum car. He asked if I would not mind trying something different? slow down a bit and NOT or use the brakes as little as possible, and allow the cars momentum, better apexing and track out and using the FULL track, better set ups for the next set of corners.

That was best weekend on track I had. Learned so much dont think I ever got above 120 mph, but sure leaned how to take corners AND saved equipment.

Great fun.

Racingswh

You following wasn't doing him any good. That's for certain.

I suggest trying to place your hands in one position. Check Mike Skeen in his Corvette out for reference. I think that for you it's resulting in small erratic movements of the steering wheel. Watch your video closely and you will see how you begin to turn the wheel too early, stop turning and then begin turning when you feel it's time. The tires start squealing, then stop, then start up again. It should be a consistent movement of the wheel to get the tires to optimum slip angle and arc the car through the corners. A consistent arc allows the tires to maintain a higher grip level through the corner. If you turn the wheel abruptly, or pop off the brakes, or smash the gas (Not saying you do it but just as examples) you will use all the tires available grip prematurely and the car will start slding at a slower speed and once sliding you have to slow the car down, let the tires regain grip and start the process all over again. I hope I am explaining that ok. All you need to know is that smoothness with every input is rewarded with higher cornering speeds which equal higher speeds on the straights which result in lower lap times. Also remember if you have to turn the wheel after the apex you were too early turning in and if you're not using all the track at corner exit you're going too slow or turned in too late.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MfaTmChbU3k

I also think that you can very simply go faster. Here is another example of how to keep your hands in position but also want to point out that this is how it should look if you're actually going fast on street tires. This is exactly how these wrecks drive when you're going quick. Actually and quite honestly I believe this is the way all cars should be driven on street tires. It's simply the best time to refine your car control skillset. Ross Bentley made a comment in one of his books as to how critical car contol is to going fast. That smooth is extremely important but matched with superior car control would be a combination that's hard to beat This is an example of that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DGcLxUF6okk

This third video is Leh Keen again for hand position as well as footwork. This is what it should look like. This example is very good because it's in an old H pattern gearbox car like all of Corvettes are.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zyM-egecTlw

For Summit Point itself I like your line well enough most places. As has been mentioned before in this thread make sure that you're using all the track. You were doing a much nicer job of that than the guy in the GTR from what I saw in your video.

That said I would trailbrake a bit to carry more speed into 1 and off the brakes and immediately pick up the throttle and really get a run out of 2 up to 3. 1 is slow and you need to get through it as fast as you can. Dig into some car control to get it to rotate and get on the gas early and start unwinding the wheel and go all the way to the edge of the track at the exit of 2. In that GTR I would have been on the brakes almost all the way through 1 just to get the front end to stick. I never used my right foot to brake in that wreck. The transition then was seemless to power and believe me I would have had to chase the oversteer slide all the way and into the grass leaving 2 running up to 3. I would be as far right as possible into 3 with a nice smooth arc rolling into power as fast as possible and going fast enough where I had to use every last inch of pavement at trackout. In my race car I stayed off the curbing on the inside of 3. In the GTR I drove it like a rally car all over the curbing and unloaded side tires in the dirt as you see Leh Keen does in the VIR video.

4 in the race car was a breathe no brakes corner. I would use the brakes though in your car and the GTR. I am not sure if I have the sack to rip out of 3 in a 600 hp (Our GTR made about 600 hp) car that weighs 3200-4000 lbs and try to make it through 4 without using the brakes to slow the car a little. I like your exit out of 4 keeping the car left into 5. Same way I do it and most of the fast guys I have ridden with or been following. Others take 5 entry wider right.

Through 5 I keep the car right at exit instead of bringing the car left. I carry more speed through 5 that way as I turn in earlier and unwind the wheel while adding full power heading up to 6 to turn into the Carousel. Also if I were following you through 5 and we were racing if you took your standard line I would be to your inside probably needing two wheels in the grass depending on when you saw me when you went to turn in. The line I descibe defends well. I have seen and made some successful passes there.

The Carousel looks fine but more speed and correct car direction with throttle input while holding the wheel in one consistent position. My favorite place to throttle steer the car. Breathe out of it a little and the car comes right setting you up nicely for the left into 8.

It looks like you're short shifting into 8 and many do there. Make sure you get the car all the way left and then all the way down to the apex of 9 adding power as quickly as possible using all the track at trackout for the run up under the bridge towards 10. Try not to drop wheels left and if you do do not go to the brakes. It will end badly with you spinning to the inside. Even throttle and guide the car gently back on track if you drop wheels there.

10 is the most important turn on the track and in your car makes you unbeatable. I stress do not overslow the car. While carrying as much corner entry speed as possible guide the car all the way down to the apex and back on the gas gently and progressively chasing the slide all the way to trackout. While I do stay off the inside curbing I am all the way over to the dirt at trackout although many don't like the bigger rumble strips beyond the paint that punish the car and wheels.

So that's the lap. Best of luck. If anyone disagrees or can add something please don't hesitate to make corrections. I love to learn as is why for many DE sessions I try to have other drivers in the car with me that know more than I do and help me get faster.

1ED1

What kind of lap times did you run at Summit Point?

jvp

Nope. There's no way I won't shuffle steer when I'm on the track, regardless of who says otherwise. I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm far more comfortable and relaxed with my hands staying at shoulder width/height.

Probably isn't going to help me much, to be honest. I take 1 slow on purpose and intend to keep it that way. I'm already doing north of 120 when I exit 2, so more speed there isn't going to help much because it'll just force me to hit the brakes sooner for 3, thereby upsetting the smoothness of the car.

The fastest way to take 3 is to break it into 2 corners, actually. There's a dip in the pavement on the right side of the track right before the big "E" painted on the turn's entry. The intent is for you to turn in at the E, but the dip prior to that does a good job of loading the front tires better. Turn then. It makes you turn early, but 3 has lots of track out, so adjust at the apex and keep going.

Nyet. I breathe off the throttle as I'm coming up the hill, and then get back on the gas gently as I crest the hill and head down it. Four's entry and apex is taken with my foot on the gas, just not planted. When I nail it, I'm north of 100MPH around that corner because I know my brakes will slow me enough for 5.

And in a race, those guys will get bonzai-passed on the inside.

Five's a throw-away, but I admit there are probably some things I can do to improve my entrance into 6 from it. Going full-throttle between 5 and 6 ain't happening in the ZR1; I'll be into the tires and I'll probably have a photographer on my hood before I know it. :-) Allowing the car to wander wider track-out in 5 is something I'm working on, but cutting straight to 6 from there isn't a good idea. It makes more sense to arc the car left before turning into 6; it rotates better that way.

Yep. I've been using TTO there since I started driving at Summit 16+ years ago. :-)

I'll routinely roll up onto the gators, but I try not to go wider than that because of how much it unsettles the car. Were I racing, I'd be really concerned with how I hit 10, to set me up to blast down the big straight. But as it turns out, in the HPDE environment, I take it easy there and in the straight. You'll note that after I shift into 5th, I breathe off the throttle and let the car (and me) cool down. I hit somewhere between 135-140MPH and just chill. There's probably a little time I could make up on the straight if I went ***** out, but at what risk?

Thanks for the feedback. I'm not sure I exactly agree with some of it, but I may try to incorporate other parts of it.

jas

Racingswh

Thoughtful responses. Have a great season! That car is incredible!!

In response to the previous question my times in the race car were 1:22's with a passenger. It was 2530 lbs and made 245 rwhp 1990 Nissan 240SX in the old SRX class.

Never got a lap time at Summit in the GTR. Lap time at NJMP Thunderbolt no chicane was 1:28-29 s with a quick time of 1:28.3 and that was going around cars that are 1:19-20 cars at Summit.