Tormania

Attended a HPDE event on Saturday and there was a tad bit of confusion with the "point by" so I wanted to get folks take on it here.

This happened to me twice. Had caught two slower cars and after a few corners the slower lead car slowed and gave the point by single. At this time the car directly in front of me goes around the lead car and I followed him around as the lead car was still slowing to let us by.

Now my instructor told me both times that I did NOT receive a point by which technically is correct, the lead driver just gave a single point by indication. But with the lead car noticably holding up two cars and slowing and giving a point by was it wrong of me to pass him along with the car in front of me or should I have waited for him to specifically give me a point by as well? I wasn't sure if that point by was only for the car directly behind the lead car or if the lead car noticed two cars behind him now and then decided to let us both by.

I would think the most proper thing to have occured was the lead car maintain his point by for the duration of our pass so it would be crystal clear that he was wanting both cars to go by.

What is your take on this situation?

Short-Throw

You just answered your own question.

The lead car may not have known you were also being held up. Unless specifically mentioned in the driver meeting, one point by per car. Sometimes a driver may keep his arm outstretched continually out the window until all cars in 'a train' have passed, but that doesn't seem to be he case you described here.

Communication between drivers should be 100% before you make a pass.


Mike

RDnomorecobra

I agree with Mike.

Was this a beginner group? This happens a lot until it is drilled into everyone's heads in multiple driver meetings. Also not usually recommended to leave the pointing hand out the window to signal multiple cars, but rather make separate, distinct, obvious points one after the other for each car he wishes to pass him. Takes practice because you want to time it so the cars in the rear of the pack can see and know that it is meant for them.

Independent1

^^You were in the wrong. Surprised you were not black flagged or giving a talking to when you came in.

While it may be fustrating to be in that position what you did was unsafe. How do you know the driver in front of you saw you? Could have had a bad ending.

I have had people in front of me hold me back for like 9 laps (15 mins.) Guy had a chevy pick-up truck with a 454. I have a miata. Guy killed me on the straights, but I was faster everywhere else. Kept coming up on his bumper at some fairly fast speeds. Eventually, he let me by. His instructor should have told him to let me pass but didn't.

Tormania

Yeah, you guys are all correct. I should have waited for him to specifically point me by. Better clarification in the drivers meeting would have helped to alleviate this but it was still my responsibility to ensure the pass was 100% safe. Ugh on me.

This was an intermediate group but I don't think some of the guys were as intermediate as others. And I'm not one to talk obviously but in a 25 minute session I was able to lap the slowest cars in our group. definitely getting smoother and more confident in the car, just felt more time should have been spent addressing point bys to avoid some confusion but if I had errored on the side of caution I would have been in the right which is what I should have done.

Will definitely ensure that is the case going forward.

Tormania

My instructor specifically mentioned this situation to our group. His philosophy is this: When you enter a corner check behind you to see if a car in there. If that car is still there when you come out of the corner point them by, regardless of what you are driving or what they are driving cause obviously they are faster in the corners and thus a better driver overall. Cause the "slower" car/student can then potentially learn something following the faster car through the corners when he is behind him.

rfn026

This really isn't hard. You aren't the first person to screw up. We've all done it once in a while. Just don't do it again - or at least until next year.

Richard

Han Solo

Some years back I had an instructor tell me I was getting too close to the car ahead. My experience was if you didn't get in their mirror the point by would never come so I made no mistake to the driver in front I wanted to pass.

I still waited for a point by from each car before passing.

sothpaw2

Unfortunately, this is actually a lot more common then most think. It's happened to me lots of times. At least the chevy finally gave you the point at all. I've talked to several drivers after and they ask "was I holding you up?" It seems to make a difference what make/model they drive too. There's one in particular where I've gotten pit signs at speed right at the next passing zone(which also happens to be where you give the pit sign at the end of the session) instead of the point.

That's life and I accept it.

Tormania

I feel like Maverick from Top Gun now. "I will NOT leave my wingman." LOL!

PushinTheLimit

In a case like that, whenever you have another driver's meeting after your run group... bring that issue up so you can get clarification on the rules on that certain club. Most I've seen are one point-by per car and do it multiple times for however many cars you are letting go by.

That should've been brought up by the lead instructor, especially after something like that. Just take note and apply it to your next time out on the track.

SouthernSon

I agree, one point bye for each car behind. Also, as far as closing in on car in front, I tell my students to get close enough to lead car, to present themselves if you will, in order to make it clear that they wish to pass. After getting close to rear bumper (a few feet), back off until getting close to passing zone. Then increase speed to overtake but wait for signal.

Bill32

The entire problem here is with the instructor in the car that gave the point by.

He's not doing his job.

Bill Dearborn

It can get a little confusing depending on the situation and the number of cars involved. Just remember each car you pass has to give you a point by. If somebody in front of you is given a point by and as they are passing that car they give you a point by don't take it unless the first car has also given you a point by. Always be alert to strange things happening when you are passing. No matter what you think you saw or heard, Communication is an Unnatural Act so be ready for mis-interpratation on your or the other person's part.

I had a situation a few weeks ago that shows up in one of the videos I posted about data logging software. The Instructor Group was running and we take late point bys and do pass going into corners and in some corners. The car in front of me was waiting for a passing signal to the right as we went around the carousel turn at the Glen (per driver's meeting), the car ahead of him didn't give the passing signal and moved to the far right as we started down the chute going into T 6, at that point the car ahead of me is passing the other car and the driver's hand comes out of the door as if he is giving me the signal to pass on the left just as the car ahead of me was going past him (you can see him clearly point his hand to the left). I followed the passing car at a safe distance into the corner but I also felt funny about the car I was beside so kept my eye on him. He is out of sight on the video but all of a sudden shows up coming from my right and if I had not been suspicious we would have collided at the apex of the turn. Here is the video, the incident starts to unfold at about the 8:15 mark. Watch the red car.



Bill

rayk

Since it was mentioned in the thread, be careful about getting on someones butt on the track. You get fixated on his car and you won't see the corner worker waving the flag and he's going to hit his brakes to slow down.

I only play close to people I know and trust.

If the track personnel do their jobs, they will flag the people holding up traffic.

NVR2L8

It is the job of both the classroom and in-car instructors to make sure the correct protocol is taught and reinforced.

Hang in there, we've all done it.

Independent1

^^Second instructor I had told me the same thing. I am really good about that now. What I was told was "if you did not see anyone behind you and now you do they are faster than you and to let them by."

Independent1

^^It does happen a lot. I heard this guy was doing this to everybody. I think he let me by because I was putting so much pressure on him he almost lost it a couple of times trying to stay ahead of me. While it was fun chasing him down in retrospect I should not have pushed him so hard when I caught up to him. The idea is to have fun but be safe. Should have pulled into the pits and gone out again.
I am still learning too and a large part of that is maintaining the right attitude and emotional control. Luckily, we both kept all 4 wheels on the track and the shiny side up.

sothpaw2

As Tom says, if you see a car right behind you that wasn't there on the grid at the session start, "God didn't put him there!!!"

Tormania

Well I don't feel as bad as even the instructors with more seat time can get it wrong.

My instructor for this last Saturday was great, was only my 3rd time running hot laps but I'm progressing very nicely. He showed me a few things for me to work one, specifically for me working on my breathing (I hold my breathe in corners, LOL), relaxed grip of the wheel, and to constantly, constantly do Looks for the Corner Workers, even across the track to have as much info as possible to be safe on track.

He has over 50K track miles on his Lotus Exige and I asked to ride with him during the instructor session for the experience to keep learning from better drivers. HOLY %#^&#%^&!!!!! I think I stained his seats! He is aggressive and VERY FAST. Talk about late braking, oh my Lord! Needless to say it was a great learning experience and I have a LOT to learn. But great building blocks to work from.