What is needed to make a C6Z reliable for hpde
07-07-2012, 06:28 AM
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
What is needed to make a C6Z reliable for hpde
If this has been covered please post links, my search didn't find anything. So I'm looking at a 06 Z06 this weekend. It has around 80k miles on it but "appears" to be well taken care of. I never intend to do any serious racing, only a few hpde's a year. Are there any must do mods before hitting the track? I've read that adding the oil pan and tank baffles are a good idea. Any info will be greatly appreciated!
Michael
Michael
07-07-2012, 07:02 AM
#2
Team Owner
Member Since: Dec 2010
Location: Hillsborough NC
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Michael,
If you hadn't already done so, you might want to read Zenak's mega-post C5 Track Car \ HPDE Conversion: What I have learned! in the sticky area above. It's mostly geared to C5s, but there is so much good stuff in there that you're sure to find stuff that is applicable to you.
Also read NEW TO AUTO-X AND ROADRACING? look in here...
If you hadn't already done so, you might want to read Zenak's mega-post C5 Track Car \ HPDE Conversion: What I have learned! in the sticky area above. It's mostly geared to C5s, but there is so much good stuff in there that you're sure to find stuff that is applicable to you.
Suggested Order of MODS if you are completely new to the addiction:
1.) First HPDE = MUST change out all fluids if you haven't in a while. Make sure your diff, trans, coolant, oil and especially your brake fluid are fresh & good quality. Safety of you and your car come first. Buy a good lightweight helmet, cheap neck foam pad and seat belt shoulder pad for the first event.
2.) Spend your first 3-6 track days in a mostly stock car. Get seat time! See if this is for you! Seat time will determine everything else. Experience is far more important to go faster than mods. You want to be on crappy tires in the begining to teach you humility! Crappy tires give feedback (barking) and you will know well in advance of losing grip. R-comps will just hold or not hold. Not good for a new driver.
3.) Once you decided HPDE is for you: brake pads, brake lines, shifter, maybe a better seat & harnesss. Safety first. Contact patch items are the most important early out.
4.) Did I mention seat time and driving schools? Good time to get your 160 thermostat, cold air intake and better spark plugs and wires with Wire boots. The get the car ECU programmed if you haven't already. Might be a good time in invest in brake ducts as well. Keeping your track car cool is a great investment in longevity of the machine. Wrap the ball joints and tierod ends in some kind of heat shielding.
5.) Shifter Kit, Catch Can, Race Pedals, Tunnel Plate, Radiator Screen, Tensioner Pulley
6.) Now your ready! This is a big debate area, but unless you went from loser to god in 5 races, you really aren't going fast enough yet in a 20-30 min HPDE to over heat the engine. I would say bushings \ ball joints \ tie rods and then the rest of the suspension next (sways, links and coil overs) in a cool/moderate climate up north.. then a bigger radiator & external oil cooler followed by the trans and differential coolers after. In a HOT cliamte like Florida, So Cal, Arizona... you need to do this in the opposite order so you don't over cook your motor, trans and diff too fast costing big $$$.
7.) Now move up to a wider rim / better R comp tire (NOT SLICKS) once you are far to ofast to kepe the car on the track in street tires.
8.) All the rest of the bells and whisltes... headers & exhaust if you didn't already after buying it. Bigger rotors and better calipers. Add Down force with your increased horsepower. When it comes to the engine and drive train DEAD LAST after all the rest has been done. Never create more raw power than your current skill level needs or is able to handle. MEH = Money + Ego + HP = Crash.
One last note, if you read this thread, notice how many people say that the hardest thing to learn about this hobby is $$$ management! (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ad-racing.html) Meaning that it will cost you in time and $$ WAY WAY more than you think! The first track day is cheap. Pads and fluids. The second day isnt too bad either. Its track events 4 to the rest that will bankrupt you! See the resources section I added below for HPDE, Autocross, Driving Schools, Websites, Books, etc.
1.) First HPDE = MUST change out all fluids if you haven't in a while. Make sure your diff, trans, coolant, oil and especially your brake fluid are fresh & good quality. Safety of you and your car come first. Buy a good lightweight helmet, cheap neck foam pad and seat belt shoulder pad for the first event.
2.) Spend your first 3-6 track days in a mostly stock car. Get seat time! See if this is for you! Seat time will determine everything else. Experience is far more important to go faster than mods. You want to be on crappy tires in the begining to teach you humility! Crappy tires give feedback (barking) and you will know well in advance of losing grip. R-comps will just hold or not hold. Not good for a new driver.
3.) Once you decided HPDE is for you: brake pads, brake lines, shifter, maybe a better seat & harnesss. Safety first. Contact patch items are the most important early out.
4.) Did I mention seat time and driving schools? Good time to get your 160 thermostat, cold air intake and better spark plugs and wires with Wire boots. The get the car ECU programmed if you haven't already. Might be a good time in invest in brake ducts as well. Keeping your track car cool is a great investment in longevity of the machine. Wrap the ball joints and tierod ends in some kind of heat shielding.
5.) Shifter Kit, Catch Can, Race Pedals, Tunnel Plate, Radiator Screen, Tensioner Pulley
6.) Now your ready! This is a big debate area, but unless you went from loser to god in 5 races, you really aren't going fast enough yet in a 20-30 min HPDE to over heat the engine. I would say bushings \ ball joints \ tie rods and then the rest of the suspension next (sways, links and coil overs) in a cool/moderate climate up north.. then a bigger radiator & external oil cooler followed by the trans and differential coolers after. In a HOT cliamte like Florida, So Cal, Arizona... you need to do this in the opposite order so you don't over cook your motor, trans and diff too fast costing big $$$.
7.) Now move up to a wider rim / better R comp tire (NOT SLICKS) once you are far to ofast to kepe the car on the track in street tires.
8.) All the rest of the bells and whisltes... headers & exhaust if you didn't already after buying it. Bigger rotors and better calipers. Add Down force with your increased horsepower. When it comes to the engine and drive train DEAD LAST after all the rest has been done. Never create more raw power than your current skill level needs or is able to handle. MEH = Money + Ego + HP = Crash.
One last note, if you read this thread, notice how many people say that the hardest thing to learn about this hobby is $$$ management! (http://forums.corvetteforum.com/auto...ad-racing.html) Meaning that it will cost you in time and $$ WAY WAY more than you think! The first track day is cheap. Pads and fluids. The second day isnt too bad either. Its track events 4 to the rest that will bankrupt you! See the resources section I added below for HPDE, Autocross, Driving Schools, Websites, Books, etc.
I'll add a few:
Don't worry about performance mods to your Vette. Your car (heck, any car) will have more performance than you can get out of it at first. You WON'T be competitive in the beginning, just worry about your gums splitting from the over-sized grin on your face!
Basic mechanicals: Full fuel, fresh brake fluid, at least 50% left on your brake pads, secure battery tie down, etc. Make sure you've got the engine oil topped off (continuous running track courses, add 1/2 Qt. over full).
Tire pressures: I like to start newbies out with high pressures, mainly to save the sidewalls of the tires. Start by adding 6 psi to each tire, COLD. Cold, like before you leave home in the morning cold. After each run (each run because you'll be picking up speed on each run) check to see that you're not running onto the sidewalls. Wear on the corner of the tread is OK, but not past that.
Interior: Get everything out of the interior that can move. Floor mats, radar detectors
, CDs, etc. You'll be braking and turning harder than you ever have before, and you won't believe the stuff that'll come out from under the seats (I've found pens, coins, notepads, etc.)
Personal: Already mentioned above, but bears repeating: WATER, WATER, WATER! And eat light. Especially if you get some runs with an instructor, it's easy to get a queasy stomach (at least for me). We don't want to
, now do we?
Let's see, sunscreen, did I mention WATER?
Finally, one tip for you C5 newbies: You can lock the lapbelt down tight by pulling it out all the way then letting it retract. Shoulder belt doesn't do this, however.
Well, that's all for now, enjoy the track time and have a good one,
Mike
Don't worry about performance mods to your Vette. Your car (heck, any car) will have more performance than you can get out of it at first. You WON'T be competitive in the beginning, just worry about your gums splitting from the over-sized grin on your face!
Basic mechanicals: Full fuel, fresh brake fluid, at least 50% left on your brake pads, secure battery tie down, etc. Make sure you've got the engine oil topped off (continuous running track courses, add 1/2 Qt. over full).
Tire pressures: I like to start newbies out with high pressures, mainly to save the sidewalls of the tires. Start by adding 6 psi to each tire, COLD. Cold, like before you leave home in the morning cold. After each run (each run because you'll be picking up speed on each run) check to see that you're not running onto the sidewalls. Wear on the corner of the tread is OK, but not past that.
Interior: Get everything out of the interior that can move. Floor mats, radar detectors
, CDs, etc. You'll be braking and turning harder than you ever have before, and you won't believe the stuff that'll come out from under the seats (I've found pens, coins, notepads, etc.)Personal: Already mentioned above, but bears repeating: WATER, WATER, WATER! And eat light. Especially if you get some runs with an instructor, it's easy to get a queasy stomach (at least for me). We don't want to
, now do we? Let's see, sunscreen, did I mention WATER?
Finally, one tip for you C5 newbies: You can lock the lapbelt down tight by pulling it out all the way then letting it retract. Shoulder belt doesn't do this, however.
Well, that's all for now, enjoy the track time and have a good one,
Mike
07-07-2012, 10:24 AM
#3
Safety Car
If this has been covered please post links, my search didn't find anything. So I'm looking at a 06 Z06 this weekend. It has around 80k miles on it but "appears" to be well taken care of. I never intend to do any serious racing, only a few hpde's a year. Are there any must do mods before hitting the track? I've read that adding the oil pan and tank baffles are a good idea. Any info will be greatly appreciated!
Michael
Michael
The main thing since you are only looking to do 2 DE's /year would be to leave the street tires on it. The C6Z oiling system isn't up to Hoosiers without a REAL dry sump (the stock one is not very good). We had 2 blow up spewing oil on track at the NCM DE and this was only 6 sessions over 2 days. I think there are some valve train replacements that you should do just to keep it reliable even on the street--rocker arm comes to mind.
So I think the best advice is to do next to nothing (just valvetrain stock replacement/refresh) and stay on street tires.
My guess is that in another few years you won't see too many C6Z at HPDE anymore as they will be out of warranty and private owners will not be willing to spend the $$ on motors blowing up or the $$ (?10-15K)dry sump needed. I doubt LS7 will continue much longer and the then parts will become a big issue. This will be especially true if the C7 turns out to be of equal HP/wt ratio. C7 will be under warranty. Then if C7 is very reliable...that will be what you see on track for the next decade plus.
Last edited by sothpaw2; 07-07-2012 at 10:40 AM.
07-07-2012, 10:50 AM
#4
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks guys!
Jcsperson: I have read thru those, alot of good info. I'm not 100% new to track days as I've done some in my Camaro, just new to the Vette world.
sothpaw2: The valve issues and oiling issues were part of my reason for asking about the Z06 on track. And I am actually planning on using street tires, since I'm not competing and I intend to drive to and from the track. PScups or NT01s or similar would likely be the stickiest tire I'll ever put on it.
Anything else?
Jcsperson: I have read thru those, alot of good info. I'm not 100% new to track days as I've done some in my Camaro, just new to the Vette world.
sothpaw2: The valve issues and oiling issues were part of my reason for asking about the Z06 on track. And I am actually planning on using street tires, since I'm not competing and I intend to drive to and from the track. PScups or NT01s or similar would likely be the stickiest tire I'll ever put on it.
Anything else?
07-07-2012, 10:55 AM
#5
Safety Car
Thanks guys!
Jcsperson: I have read thru those, alot of good info. I'm not 100% new to track days as I've done some in my Camaro, just new to the Vette world.
sothpaw2: The valve issues and oiling issues were part of my reason for asking about the Z06 on track. And I am actually planning on using street tires, since I'm not competing and I intend to drive to and from the track. PScups or NT01s or similar would likely be the stickiest tire I'll ever put on it.
Anything else?
Jcsperson: I have read thru those, alot of good info. I'm not 100% new to track days as I've done some in my Camaro, just new to the Vette world.
sothpaw2: The valve issues and oiling issues were part of my reason for asking about the Z06 on track. And I am actually planning on using street tires, since I'm not competing and I intend to drive to and from the track. PScups or NT01s or similar would likely be the stickiest tire I'll ever put on it.
Anything else?
07-07-2012, 11:07 AM
#6
Drifting
I'm actually in a similar situation though with a grand sport rather than a Z. I've decided to leave street-ish tires on and replace the brake lines and pads. There are a few firms who make one piece pads for the Z calipers, and I will use those. Likely in XP10 compound from Carbotech. Stainless steel brake lines have served me well on three other cars, so this one will get the same treatment (after warranty expires). Other than that, perhaps a harness bar and a HANS would be good ideas, if you can live with the stock seats. If not, some kind of hybrid racing/street seat would work.
I've become convinced that if you run harnesses, you need a head restraint. There are many good ones, but pick one and just get it. Peace of mind is central to having fun on a track. Have fun!
I've become convinced that if you run harnesses, you need a head restraint. There are many good ones, but pick one and just get it. Peace of mind is central to having fun on a track. Have fun!
07-07-2012, 07:53 PM
#7
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If this has been covered please post links, my search didn't find anything. So I'm looking at a 06 Z06 this weekend. It has around 80k miles on it but "appears" to be well taken care of. I never intend to do any serious racing, only a few hpde's a year. Are there any must do mods before hitting the track? I've read that adding the oil pan and tank baffles are a good idea. Any info will be greatly appreciated!
Michael
Michael
If you are going to run on tracks with long high g left hand turns then go to the larger dry sump if not then don't bother upgrading the dry sump. Can't make any recommendations on what to do about valves dropping since I am waiting to hear of a known good solution.
Other than those two issues the car is ready to go. The consumable costs with the C6Z stock brakes are high so most people upgrade to StopTechs but if you are only doing 2 to 4 days per year I wouldn't bother. If you plan on running street tires then get some Hawk HP+ pads and use them on the track (last year they were the low cost option).
Once you learn how to drive the car you will be amazed at how strong it is. There is no need to modify the engine for more power. If you want to go faster than the stock car will go then get CCW 18x11 wheels in the front and 18x13 wheels in the back, install Hoosier R6s, install the Stop Techs front and rear and put in a harness bar/race seats for you and the instructor and get a track alignment. Don't touch the engine. Set up like that there won't be much on the track that can keep up with you let alone pass (another Z06) if you are a good enough driver. My C5Z made me feel like I was a king when on the track. The C6Z makes me feel like a god when I start stroking it to the limit.
Bill
07-07-2012, 09:54 PM
#8
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks Bill! Lots of good info there. I was wondering about the dry sump. My ls1 has the same issue with the high g lefts too. My main track will be VIR as I only live like 40 mins from there and it doesn't really have any long lefts. Might hit CMP or Road Atlanta on occasion, but I think they're safe too as far as high g corners. Regarding the valves, it seems no one can agree on what to do. Some say ss valves will be a problem due to weight, but don't most other aftermarket ls style heads have ss valves? Pretty sure my TEAs on the Z28 do. I don't mind spending a little money on it for reliability. I love the sound of headers and corsa, but as far as internal mods I see no need. A stock Z06 should dyno as much or more than my h/c/i ls1 and have a slight weight advantage to, so I think speed wise I'll be satisfied. Any need to upgrade the oil, trans, diff or power steering coolers? Radiator? Thanks again guys for all the info!
07-07-2012, 10:56 PM
#9
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Thanks Bill! Lots of good info there. I was wondering about the dry sump. My ls1 has the same issue with the high g lefts too. My main track will be VIR as I only live like 40 mins from there and it doesn't really have any long lefts. Might hit CMP or Road Atlanta on occasion, but I think they're safe too as far as high g corners. Regarding the valves, it seems no one can agree on what to do. Some say ss valves will be a problem due to weight, but don't most other aftermarket ls style heads have ss valves? Pretty sure my TEAs on the Z28 do. I don't mind spending a little money on it for reliability. I love the sound of headers and corsa, but as far as internal mods I see no need. A stock Z06 should dyno as much or more than my h/c/i ls1 and have a slight weight advantage to, so I think speed wise I'll be satisfied. Any need to upgrade the oil, trans, diff or power steering coolers? Radiator? Thanks again guys for all the info!
Bill
07-08-2012, 12:23 AM
#10
Track Junky
My Z06 has the 8 quart dry sump and that hasn't been an issue. The tracks I run on don't have long high g left hand turns and I don't usually run turns like that by twisting the engine to higher rpms by running in 3rd when 4th will do just as well. Some people have had issues in left turns due to the engine doing what all LS engines do which is pump all the oil into the right head. Basically, they run out of oil. I did lose my engine last year when an exhaust valve head dropped into the cylinder and destroyed number on cylinder. Since it didn't break the piston the engine didn't grenade but some have and sometimes people mistake that for a bearing problem Vs a valve problem.
If you are going to run on tracks with long high g left hand turns then go to the larger dry sump if not then don't bother upgrading the dry sump. Can't make any recommendations on what to do about valves dropping since I am waiting to hear of a known good solution.
Other than those two issues the car is ready to go. The consumable costs with the C6Z stock brakes are high so most people upgrade to StopTechs but if you are only doing 2 to 4 days per year I wouldn't bother. If you plan on running street tires then get some Hawk HP+ pads and use them on the track (last year they were the low cost option).
Once you learn how to drive the car you will be amazed at how strong it is. There is no need to modify the engine for more power. If you want to go faster than the stock car will go then get CCW 18x11 wheels in the front and 18x13 wheels in the back, install Hoosier R6s, install the Stop Techs front and rear and put in a harness bar/race seats for you and the instructor and get a track alignment. Don't touch the engine. Set up like that there won't be much on the track that can keep up with you let alone pass (another Z06) if you are a good enough driver. My C5Z made me feel like I was a king when on the track. The C6Z makes me feel like a god when I start stroking it to the limit.
Bill
If you are going to run on tracks with long high g left hand turns then go to the larger dry sump if not then don't bother upgrading the dry sump. Can't make any recommendations on what to do about valves dropping since I am waiting to hear of a known good solution.
Other than those two issues the car is ready to go. The consumable costs with the C6Z stock brakes are high so most people upgrade to StopTechs but if you are only doing 2 to 4 days per year I wouldn't bother. If you plan on running street tires then get some Hawk HP+ pads and use them on the track (last year they were the low cost option).
Once you learn how to drive the car you will be amazed at how strong it is. There is no need to modify the engine for more power. If you want to go faster than the stock car will go then get CCW 18x11 wheels in the front and 18x13 wheels in the back, install Hoosier R6s, install the Stop Techs front and rear and put in a harness bar/race seats for you and the instructor and get a track alignment. Don't touch the engine. Set up like that there won't be much on the track that can keep up with you let alone pass (another Z06) if you are a good enough driver. My C5Z made me feel like I was a king when on the track. The C6Z makes me feel like a god when I start stroking it to the limit.
Bill
I ask because I just put a dry sump LS3 into my 2005 vette (lost the LS2 due to a timing chain break in March). I don't wanna pay for another motor because I didn't do my homework...
07-08-2012, 02:41 PM
#11
Tech Contributor
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Bill, can I diverge for a second? The LS7 has hollow and sodium valves like the dry sump LS3, right? If so, what causes the valve to drop into the cylinder? Does the head pop off and bounce around?
I ask because I just put a dry sump LS3 into my 2005 vette (lost the LS2 due to a timing chain break in March). I don't wanna pay for another motor because I didn't do my homework...
I ask because I just put a dry sump LS3 into my 2005 vette (lost the LS2 due to a timing chain break in March). I don't wanna pay for another motor because I didn't do my homework...
As you can see the stem of the exhaust valve is shown in the guide and the mechanic found the head of the exhaust valve in the intake manifold when he pulled it. The head of the valve did a lot of damage to the cast piston but some how the piston survived (maybe because the valve head went into the intake sooner than ones on other engines did). It is obvious the intake valve head did some hammering as well but it was frozen in one place while the exhaust head was moving around. As it was the cylinder liner was cracked in two places which pretty much was the end of the story for the block.
Bill
07-08-2012, 03:41 PM
#12
Instructor
Michael,
The main thing since you are only looking to do 2 DE's /year would be to leave the street tires on it. The C6Z oiling system isn't up to Hoosiers without a REAL dry sump (the stock one is not very good). We had 2 blow up spewing oil on track at the NCM DE and this was only 6 sessions over 2 days. I think there are some valve train replacements that you should do just to keep it reliable even on the street--rocker arm comes to mind.
So I think the best advice is to do next to nothing (just valvetrain stock replacement/refresh) and stay on street tires.
My guess is that in another few years you won't see too many C6Z at HPDE anymore as they will be out of warranty and private owners will not be willing to spend the $$ on motors blowing up or the $$ (?10-15K)dry sump needed. I doubt LS7 will continue much longer and the then parts will become a big issue. This will be especially true if the C7 turns out to be of equal HP/wt ratio. C7 will be under warranty. Then if C7 is very reliable...that will be what you see on track for the next decade plus.
The main thing since you are only looking to do 2 DE's /year would be to leave the street tires on it. The C6Z oiling system isn't up to Hoosiers without a REAL dry sump (the stock one is not very good). We had 2 blow up spewing oil on track at the NCM DE and this was only 6 sessions over 2 days. I think there are some valve train replacements that you should do just to keep it reliable even on the street--rocker arm comes to mind.
So I think the best advice is to do next to nothing (just valvetrain stock replacement/refresh) and stay on street tires.
My guess is that in another few years you won't see too many C6Z at HPDE anymore as they will be out of warranty and private owners will not be willing to spend the $$ on motors blowing up or the $$ (?10-15K)dry sump needed. I doubt LS7 will continue much longer and the then parts will become a big issue. This will be especially true if the C7 turns out to be of equal HP/wt ratio. C7 will be under warranty. Then if C7 is very reliable...that will be what you see on track for the next decade plus.
07-08-2012, 03:56 PM
#13
Track Junky
I haven't heard of any issues on the 11 qt dry sumps, that's why I had mine upgraded by lingenfelter before the install. I am a bit worried about the valve heads breaking off now that Bill mentions it...
07-08-2012, 04:12 PM
#14
Racer
Thread Starter
Just got home from looking at the car. It's in pretty good shape, a few more rock chips than I would like, but that's not a serious issue for me. It has what I assume is the infamous ls7 ticking sound. Runs strong, has nearly 85k miles on it tho. In one way it seems like high mileage could be bad, but on the other hand, at 85k it's made it longer than some making it seem like a well built piece. These valve threads have me nervous about buying a Z. You'd think there would be enough ls7s with head/valve mods to know whether different valve materials or guides is a permanent fix. I did really like driving it tho! The torque is intoxicating and the ride is actually very good, more comfortable than the Z28! The price is spot on according to kbb, just gotta make a decision now...
07-08-2012, 04:31 PM
#15
Safety Car
Almost forgot. The Power Steering Pump could be upgraded to a Turn 1 pump or you could add a larger PS cooler. GeeRookie did that on his C5 and he says he hasn't had any PS issues since. Oil, tranny and diff coolers work fine just as they came from the factory.
Bill
Bill
07-08-2012, 09:33 PM
#16
Safety Car
07-08-2012, 10:08 PM
#17
Track Junky
07-09-2012, 01:02 AM
#18
Safety Car
07-09-2012, 08:36 AM
#19
Le Mans Master
Simple, if you are a novice with little or no experience, leave the car alone and just change out the brake fluid. The car is very capable in stock form and will easily take until you become an intermediate to need updates.
07-09-2012, 10:04 AM
#20
Racer
Thread Starter
Thanks for the responses guys. Sounds like unless I get into time trials or something that it should be pretty capable. As I said before, plans are only for hpde on street tires or maybe ps cups at most. Anyone have any insight on the mileage? Car is around 10k less than the average 40k mile cars I've seen so it's a deal if the higher mileage isn't an issue.