63Corvette

OK I think most of us would agree that passing is "usually" done on the inside of a turn because that's the shorter route, and therefore an "advantage". On the other hand, if you cut the corner (4 wheels off) , that is an unacceptable advantage and should be penalized, usually by giving the pass back.
My question for the Forum members, is do you think that passing on the OUTSIDE, which results in a longer route, and is therefore a disadvantage, should be similarly penalized if, during the pass, the passing driver runs (or is squeezed) 4 wheels off, but successfully completes the pass (without contact)?

Everett Ogilvie

If the driver improves his position WHILE OFF TRACK - clear as daylight - PENALTY!

Pretty clear, since the penalty was handed down today! And rightly so!

Falcon

I've only raced with NASA, but their rules pretty much say you can't go 4-wheels off:

25.6 Off-course Excursions
The competitor is required to follow the marked course during competition and shall not gain an advantage by an off-course excursion. An off-course excursion is defined as leaving the marked course with all four wheels. The definition of the term “advantage gained” will be left up to the sole discretion of the Race Director, and may include pass attempts that were completed, but the overtaking driver went four-wheels-off on the exit, and it was deemed to be an otherwise “ill-fated” pass (i.e. the “Zanardi maneuver”). Penalties may be assessed for an off-course excursion that affords an advantage to the offender.

63Corvette

While I don't disagree, I do think the penalty (20 seconds) was Draconian to say the least! The Chief Steward has apparently lots of discretion in penalty application (for instance, when Michael ran Barrachello almost into the pit wall), and I would have thought that if the offense was gaining 2nd from 3rd place, that reversing that would have been in line with the "punishment fits the crime" idea of appropriate fairness.

Everett Ogilvie

I agree and think the penalty should have moved him from 2nd to 3rd.

Falcon

After seeing the end of the race just a few minutes ago, I agree, give back the position gained. Nothing more.

Racingswh

In my experience it all depends on the series and what is at stake as to the level of importance of off track passing. I was turning underneath another driver out of class in a Spec Neon into 9 at Summit Point main while leading a NASA race overall . He turned down on me and I had to go 4 wheels off to avoid contact. Car went airborne. Landed back on track car sliding left. Never really lifted, advanced my position with the pass through the grass/air, got the overall win and not a word was ever said by anyone. I never had even thought about the legality of that pass until just now actually. I was forced to go 4 off by the driver of the car I was overtaking and NASA rules clearly state you must go off to avoid contact. I never thought about slowing to give up my position and repass on the following straight. As far as I was concerned I was lucky to get by without incident and I never looked back.

I know a driver that has made many NASA starts at Summit Main with at least two wheels in the grass picking up as many positions as he could while the other competitors couldn't even see the green yet. No one ever cared as far as I know. There just wasn't anything at stake of any significance.

On the other hand when there are millions upon millions of dollars at stake rules are obviously more important. If Vettel had exercised patience I believe he would have been able to complete a legal pass successfully for second position. He was clearly much quicker at that point of the race. I believe position should have been given back immediately and the fight to repass continued. His team should have instructed him to do so. In addtion in the true letter of the rule shouldn't he be penalized for everytime he drove off the track and gained on the driver he was following? As I recall he was driving that thing on the ragged edge all outside the lines in his attempt to run down the cars in front.

Falcon

Can't say I'd have done any different than what you did. You weren't required to slow down or give any position back. That decision would have been out of your hands and would be assessed after the race. That's why it's written like it is:

"The definition of the term “advantage gained” will be left up to the sole discretion of the Race Director, and may include pass attempts that were completed, but the overtaking driver went four-wheels-off on the exit, and it was deemed to be an otherwise “ill-fated” pass (i.e. the “Zanardi maneuver”). Penalties may be assessed for an off-course excursion that affords an advantage to the offender."




At stake has nothing to do with it, he hadn't broken any rule. Two wheels is okay, we've all done that. In fact, I've gone 3 wheels off. The rule is written very specifically to say 4 wheels:

"An off-course excursion is defined as leaving the marked course with all four wheels."

Racingswh

Interesting. It just looked so "wrong" to be blazing up the outside of a 50 car field, two wheels in the grass, just because he had an in car communicator when the other guys were left wondering what was going on. So if he had gone 4 wheels off and gained advantage there would have been an issue. Thanks for restating that. I get it now. Much appreciated.