LSX_NUT

How does the C5Z06 compare to the Subaru WRX STI and the Mitshubishi EVO on the roadcourse / autocross? Stock and lightly modded.

A friend of mine seems to think his lightly modded EVO 8 would easily out handle my C5 Z06 in the corners. I know they can handle very well since they are all wheel drive but how do they compare to the Z06?

Apparently he has seen lightly modded EVO's beat the Z06 pretty easily at the road course.

Thoughts?

ptindall

What you see in real life depends mostly upon the driver so it can obviously go either way between some randowm Z06 vs some random EVO on some random track day. However, purely car vs car the C5Z06 is faster and that includes most cornering situations. Its a lighter, lower car with a bigger tire.

skyavonee

I've also seen Miatas and Civics beat up on STI's, Evo's, and Vettes. Ask your friend what he thinks about that.

96CollectorSport

We've run against some well prepped and driven Evo's and STi's and I would agree with what the others have said. It depends on how modified each are and how well they are driven. We've had some good races between some well driven Evo's in both TTA/PTA and TT2/ST2 - I really think it comes down to prep and driver.

racebum

agree with the driver part

evo is easier to drive at the limit than the z06 is. it would be much easier for a newb to spin the z06 around doing something like corner braking and using too much of the right foot too early

evo masks driver mistakes better imo

yakisoba

The evos I've run against have had much more prep than my Z. With modern shocks (2004), stock brakes and the same tires, it's pretty close. The difference is the Z is running well within the envelope and the Evo is on the ragged edge of the engine. Custom tune and fuel, adjustable shocks, and so forth. The last time a team of three pushed me a bit, one ran off track (and DQ), one engine blew up and one fell half a second short of my time.

VetteDrmr

On the autox a well driven WRX/STi is a formidable opponent. Sticky Hoosiers, a 6000 rpm launch, and you're behind by most of a second just on launch.

But, on the track, the disadvantages (mainly heat and weight) nullify that.

And, as everyone has said, the driver continues to make the most difference.

Have a good one,
Mike

Zak77

In my local SCCA autocross events there are a number of corvettes, STI's, Evo's etc that show up. Usually the fastest PAX times of the day are either Tony Savini in his A Class 99 FRC or Shoe in his HIGHLY modded Evo. It's pretty amazing to ride along with Savini in his C5 as that is one incredibly intense 60 seconds and with a good (ok great) driver can do with a vette is amazing. His car is pretty much stock (within the SCCA A Stock limits) with just shocks, Hoosier A6's (Stock width rims) and an exhaust.

For a newb, like me, my times are MUCH better in my wife's STI than in my C5. As others have said the AWD cars offer tremendous grip and the cars are actually tough to spin. While in my pretty much stock C5 I've done a number of 180's on the autox courses.

On the back roads around here it's pretty close when my wife and I go out to do some spirited driving. Stop light to stop light it's almost dead even as she does not launch hard. If she really pushes it that thing will take off. Once over 80-90mph though the vette easily overtakes it. The STI is about 150lbs heavier than my C5 but my wife weights 130lbs less than me so weights are about the same at that point.

I'd like to take her STI out for a HPDE on day.

Socko

I had an 11 sti that i ran hpde with before it blew up, like they all do, generally sooner than later in turn why I now have an 03 z06 and will say at the end of the day it is a much better car for trackwork cause it is built for the track unlike sti's which blow motors and evos that overheat trannies or pop center diffs.

Beyond that, for a novice driver like myself the STI was MUCH easier to drive. Put any sort of decent street tire on it and a basic tune, and you cannot really loose traction. It's front heavyness is very evident. You are SLOW on turn in and therefor are fully back in the gas preapex letting the center diff computer shift power front to rear and it will just suck you though most all corners. The car is over all slow though. It is fast'ish on exit on an odd line and doesn't have the power to pass people once they slow you down relative to running a more standard line. Part of this is relative to the torque curve of any stock turbo car, part is weight, part is awd.

Evos are faster on the track than stis. A kid with an evo X with a tune and down pipe and coil overs was faster than me in the vette in the morning. By the end of the day I was getting more confident and was a good bit faster than him on a really tight track. I was running almost 2 seconds faster than him when his tranny started over heating. So the limit of the car is lower than a stock 03 z06 with 5 year old ps2's even on a slow tight track. I assume trans cooling could fix this, but its been a known issues with that tranny in the evo since day 1, i don't know why it hasn't been fixed.

My friend has a 08 sti with roughtly $22k in mods in it. RCE legit adjsutable coilovers and a 1.5xtr setup tuned to 380whp. At BHF he ran a best lap of 1:24 to my 1:28. So he was a LOT faster than me, but i had never been there before and there is only 2 spots on the track where i could go wot and it was only then for a couple seconds. I suspect this weekend at autobahn i should be closer to him in times as it is a faster track, and hopefully a good bit warmer. Later this year at Road America I am planning to compete with him. He is a more experianced driver but I think at a fast track like Road America that I have run a few times, my lack of experiance will be lessened and the strength of my car will make the difference. Last year i was few seconds faster then him with his old setup and 80 less whp. But I had only had my car for about 6 weeks at that point and RA was the first time i could go WOT without just devouring tire so I was pretty slow till the last 2 sessions. I suspect he will still be a bit faster, so an 08 that he got new for $28k plus $22k in mods for a total of $50k invested, will likely beat an 03 z06 with old tires, longtubes, and 34k miles on it that cost $23.5k. I wouldn't call that lightly modded, and he is a better and more experianced driver than me without doubt.


Over all, from what I have seen in an hpde environment an evo or sti with the stock snail has almost no chance to compete with a c5 z06, assuming equal driver skill and that it isn't your first time on the track with a car. Hell the grandam sti had a 1.5xtr to compete with the camaro. If you looked at those times you could see the story of the STI. The car was fast in qualifying it took some polls and just couldn't pass on the track. Relative to the stupid line you have to run with an awd car vs a rwd car and where your speed is on the track, which is corner apex/exit but then not having the power to back that up going into the straight.

BUT at the same time I think its much easier for a novice driver to extract most of the potential from an evo or sti, where as the corvette is much more challenging to drive. Evo and sti are all about moving all the weight you can forward to turn, if you do that in the vette you wont have traction to apply power for corner exit so its much more about total control. evo/sti is more about mash brakes then mash gas, repeat. Seeing an evo or sti beat a z06 is likely I think cause of this. Mind you I am actually a really poor track driver and I still think any stock snail novice woudln't stand a chance. But if you aren't willing to reach for the limits of the z06, or were running against a seasoned driver, well right. A ****ing miata can beat a z06 with a huge gap in driver skill at play. I have seen that happen too, even though it is laughable to me.

JRitt@essex

Either stock or with a few bolt-on's (let's say a $3k-$5k budget), a C5Z06 is a considerably faster car around just about any full-size racetrack than an Evo or STI with a similar level of mods (assuming the driver is the same and can wring all of the cars out). The C5 Z06 has on its side:
HP to weight ratio
Mechanical grip
Torque
Aerodynamics

A track-prepped C5Z with header, intake, tune puts down about 380/375 ish HP to the wheels, weighs roughly 3150 lbs., and can run 305 R comp's at all four corners without mods to the fenders. A bolt-on STI or Evo would be more in the low to mid 300's on hp, weigh a couple hundred lbs. more, and run considerably narrower tires (275). The numbers don't lie.

More importantly though, I've driven all three cars on the track (students and/or friends), mainly at Buttonwillow, Streets, and Big Willow. The C5Z is the fastest of the three by quite a bit (and also the most fun IMO due to RWD). I think the Evo is slightly faster than the STI, and I prefer the way the Evo feels to the STI...a bit more nimble, direct steering feel, shifter, etc. They're all great cars, but the C5Z is just plain faster. As the speed of the track increases, I'd expect the gap between the Z and the others to grow even further. In other words, I'd expect the Z to outpace the others by a relatively larger margin at Road America or Watkins Glen than I would if you compared them at Streets of Willow.

AutoX...that's a tougher one. The Z's advantages aren't as great at the lower speeds and tighter corners.

Again though, once you start throwing money into any of these cars, things can change quickly.

Zak77

Socko, can you explain the engine blowing up and "they all do"? I'd like our STI to last a long time. it's my wife's car and she thus far has only done one, 30 minute session at Pocono North in it. I'd like to see her get a few HPDE's in it but curious about your comment.

LSX_NUT

thanks for all the un-biased information guys. Thats exactly what I was thinking regarding those cars vs the Z06. I'm a autocross/road course newb but I can't wait to get this thing on the track.

I know the C6Z06 handles even better than the C5. Anyone have any experiance to know how big the handling different is between those two cars?

Also, I wasn't trying to bash the EVO or WRX performance/handling. I'd love an EVO X or WRX as a daily driver and then keep my Z06 for the weekend toy.

Zak77

Funny thing is that my C5 gets MUCH better fuel mileage than my wife's STI. I can get 32-33mpg highway where she's lucky to get 25mpg highway. City my C5 is better as well. But she can drive in the snow. And wow that thing is fun in the snow.

Socko

Look on iwsti or google for "ring land failures", I would compare it nearly identically to the ls7 valve issues. I was into the scene and had a wrx before i had my sti. SO knew of the issue but ignored it. This is the motor life of the 5 sti's i personally know of.

1. 08 with 8 track days, has a aos and all the killer b oil goodies. Still runs stong but has some mild bolwby issues. This car is NOT BROKE. The owner of the car has a whole built motor in his basement we are just waiting to drop in, he is that sure that it is only a matter of time.

2. My friends 06 sti, never tracked just driven hard on the street, motor blew at 8000ish miles, rod bearing failure due to detonation. Replaced with subie shortblock under warranty.

3. same friends 11 sti ring land failure from det at 17000 street miles. Replaced single piston under warranty.

4. a different friends 08, bought used but ring land failure at 2x,xxx miles first track day. Had to build a motor, warranty was denied.

5. same friend same car, hardcore built motor making 530whp. Lifted heads shortly after first track day.

6. my car, started using a small ammount of oil after first track day at 8xxx miles. after second track day was using over 1/2 a quart every 1000 miles. My car was logged continually from 1500 miles on and i started seeing signs of more and more det after the second track day due to octane reduction due to all the blowby oil. I traded the car in at the dealer before it stopped functioning, but it was close at hand.

From looking at my logs and other peoples logs, which i spent hundreds of hours doing. I can tell you there is knock occuring that isn't being detected or detected properly and that is why the cars blow up. Seen as they are so octane starved even with the anemic stock tune, it really is just a matter of time.

The gr's pistons are the weak point for det based failures. GD's its the rod bearings, and they generally last significantly better but there are plenty of det based bearing falures of gd's on the forums too. You can get lucky now and again and get one that isn't a ticking time bomb. But the design is not sufficent for sustained track use imo.

I agree that my optimal dd would be a wrx wagon. So much space and quite fun year round. Not really beatable for the money.

I can tell you without any question the reason i have a 03-04 z06 is because i looked up every car i could afford that was track worthy and spent dozens of hours researching them on their forums, it is by far the most reliable platform i found. After being afraid to drive the sti like i bought it for, it is nice to have a car that I am not scared is going to grenade cause i tap the rev limiter or cause i run 6k rpm in a carusel and cause it to eat a bunch of oil and blow itself up.

As the issue with the cars is detonation, I can tell you i have thought about getting another wrx and just forcing myself to keep it stock. The one thing i would do to it is an aos or catch can. Have to do everything you can to keep the octane up, cause there is knock occuring that just isn't getting dealt with properly by the computer. At some point it becomes critical, but you can never see that point until you are low on oil cause you got a cracked piston.

Aardwolf

What RA event you going to? I want to play too! So bummed no NASA events there this year!!!

RedLS1GTO

That is just about the perfect answer...

To add my .02 to it, A co-worker that I went to the track with a few times drives what I would call a "lightly" modified 3rd Gen STi. At a track like VIR, the Sti doesn't stand a chance with comparable driving. As said above, the faster the track, the larger the Vette's advantage. On an AutoX track where they can make better use of the AWD, it is a different story. It is definitely more in it's element. At that point it falls squarely on the driver.

I don't know all of the details, but he has also had some MAJOR engine issues with his as well.

travisnd

Most TTA/PTA cars were on their original engines with well over 100k miles on them. The one competitive STI (who moved to ST2/TTS) blew up 3 engines a short time period.

Like anything, they can be made fast. In the hands of a capable driver they can put up serious laptimes. If it rains they have a big advantage. That said, the C5 Z06 is the better tool for the job IMO. The car is better engineered to be a racecar. It's the KISS principle in action.

Gobot

I've owned an Evo, an STI and now a C5Z. High speed no question the Z kills them but the Z isn't going to win one 0-40 contest. Like everyone has said it really depends on the driver. Much easier to drive the STI and EVO close to the edge without white knuckling it the entire time.

travisnd

Of course it's easier to drive one the edge when you're going slower

EyeMaster

I would be slower in the Evo or any AWD vehicle than I am with a RWD vehicle. I just don't know how to drive them!

It is very driver dependant. Second in the equation is the tires. 3rd is HP and all the rest.

I can tell you that in our club, there's this guy with a stock 240sx that beats everything else that autocrosses and he's very good at the track too. My only chance would be in the straights where my power makes an ant of him.

So, who wins between the STI, EVO and Z06? The DRIVER!