Need shock opinion double/triple adj
09-24-2013, 05:03 PM
#1
Race Director
Thread Starter
Need shock opinion double/triple adj
Let's leave out the comments like "buy koni/bilstein etc non adj & learn to drive".
Just post if you have had double or triple on your car, I don't care if you installed them or had a shop do it.
If I understand correctly SCCA SP solo rules let me use remote canisters & any # of adjustments.
Yes?
What do you think is the best/most often seen at nationals/shock?
I have to place some kind of $ limit so let's say 5k max.
Ohlins, Moutons, Penske, Koni, Bilstein etc.
What are my options?
C5z of course.
Thanks for useful comments.
Just post if you have had double or triple on your car, I don't care if you installed them or had a shop do it.
If I understand correctly SCCA SP solo rules let me use remote canisters & any # of adjustments.
Yes?
What do you think is the best/most often seen at nationals/shock?
I have to place some kind of $ limit so let's say 5k max.
Ohlins, Moutons, Penske, Koni, Bilstein etc.
What are my options?
C5z of course.
Thanks for useful comments.
09-24-2013, 05:35 PM
#2
Melting Slicks
I have a set of double adjustable Koni's. I had them built before the latest ones were available, cost me 3k for the set. The latest ones for your car are reasonable and have the same valving as mine, so I don't think you will be disappointed. I think they are very good. I like the ability to tune the car, but unless you really are into shock tuning I think the single adjustables are just fine.
The reason I say that is that compression damping is a function of spring rates and if you are in a stock class with stock springs there isn't as much of an advantage going to double adjustables. With double adjustables you tend to get the compression damping right and don't screw with it much, I tend to do most of my fine tuning with the rebound adjustment once I get the compression where it is right. Mark Daddio used to say he only used single adjustable shocks because he was too dumb to used doubles. I always doubted that, Mark is one heck of shoe as well as no dummy, but he won a bunch of national championships on single adjustables. If I had it to do all over again I'd probably just go with the singles unless I had the intentions of trying to win a national championship.
I think that Ohlins, Moutons, Penske's may all be a bit better in as much as I see some serious hot shoes using them, but I just don't have any experience on them to know if they are measurably better than the Koni's. The Koni's have a nice range of adjustment and I can get the car to where it is working well on them. I think a that a triple might be an advantage in that you can adjust the high speed differently, but that's just like putting another face on a rubix cube. If I had a shock dyno and could run a whole bunch of maps I might think that I could use a triple, but without that information, you are probably just shooting in the dark. JMHO...
The reason I say that is that compression damping is a function of spring rates and if you are in a stock class with stock springs there isn't as much of an advantage going to double adjustables. With double adjustables you tend to get the compression damping right and don't screw with it much, I tend to do most of my fine tuning with the rebound adjustment once I get the compression where it is right. Mark Daddio used to say he only used single adjustable shocks because he was too dumb to used doubles. I always doubted that, Mark is one heck of shoe as well as no dummy, but he won a bunch of national championships on single adjustables. If I had it to do all over again I'd probably just go with the singles unless I had the intentions of trying to win a national championship.
I think that Ohlins, Moutons, Penske's may all be a bit better in as much as I see some serious hot shoes using them, but I just don't have any experience on them to know if they are measurably better than the Koni's. The Koni's have a nice range of adjustment and I can get the car to where it is working well on them. I think a that a triple might be an advantage in that you can adjust the high speed differently, but that's just like putting another face on a rubix cube. If I had a shock dyno and could run a whole bunch of maps I might think that I could use a triple, but without that information, you are probably just shooting in the dark. JMHO...
Last edited by Solofast; 09-24-2013 at 05:39 PM.
09-24-2013, 06:59 PM
#4
Penske is the most common used between penske, moton, and ohlin. It is the lowest cost. They are easy to service (I do it myself) and parts are readily available. Moton and ohlin have some nice features that dont affect performance. These are also custom, so you can get shoter lengths than koni. You want a shorter shock than stock. With these shocks, valving is up to so, so they work as well as your engineering allows.
I think 60% of autocrossers using double adjustable shocks would be faster on single adjustable shocks because most people keep turning up compression because the car "feels" better and they dont use data to help them. JMHO, YMMV
Koni singles work just fine...
I think 60% of autocrossers using double adjustable shocks would be faster on single adjustable shocks because most people keep turning up compression because the car "feels" better and they dont use data to help them. JMHO, YMMV
Koni singles work just fine...
09-25-2013, 08:33 AM
#5
Racer
When you sat down to watch racing all day on the biggest day in motorsports on memorial day weekend, one of those manufacturers was on the pole position at monaco, Indy, and Charlotte. And then won all 3 races, in 3 completely different racing disciplines. They also were on the Rolex 24 winning car, and the 24 hr of Lemans winning car.
09-25-2013, 10:13 AM
#6
Advanced
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Pick the one where you can get the best service and attention from the builder.
There are more builders that "know what you want" than there are that are willing to listen to you and give you what YOU want.
After that, then you pick the MFG based on pricing, options, future updates, possible transfer to a new car, resale value, etc.
I disagree from a technical standpoint with a lot of what is written above regarding damping and tuning. I think there are quite a few builders who are more behind the curve than they realize (pun intended). Low speed compression damping is under-utilized and rebound is oft over-utilized.
Do not forget about JRZ, MCS, or JRi.
There are more builders that "know what you want" than there are that are willing to listen to you and give you what YOU want.
After that, then you pick the MFG based on pricing, options, future updates, possible transfer to a new car, resale value, etc.
I disagree from a technical standpoint with a lot of what is written above regarding damping and tuning. I think there are quite a few builders who are more behind the curve than they realize (pun intended). Low speed compression damping is under-utilized and rebound is oft over-utilized.
Do not forget about JRZ, MCS, or JRi.
09-25-2013, 12:21 PM
#7
When you sat down to watch racing all day on the biggest day in motorsports on memorial day weekend, one of those manufacturers was on the pole position at monaco, Indy, and Charlotte. And then won all 3 races, in 3 completely different racing disciplines. They also were on the Rolex 24 winning car, and the 24 hr of Lemans winning car.
09-25-2013, 02:06 PM
#9
Safety Car
I did an article a few months back on racing shocks. Keep in mind that every single adjustment means you have a 50% chance of making the car worse. The folks at Performance Shocks (Sanoma) won't even sell you three ways unless you have a team engineer.
Remember that shocks are the final step in handling.
"It’s critical that you get the spring package right before you start playing with shocks. Once you get the springs right you can start to tune the package with shock absorbers. Koni feels that you should utilize shocks and sway bars as tuning devices only after you get the spring package correct. You don’t start with shock absorbers. Koni suggests that you regard shock absorbers as a precision tool for that final handling correction."
Richard Newton
Remember that shocks are the final step in handling.
"It’s critical that you get the spring package right before you start playing with shocks. Once you get the springs right you can start to tune the package with shock absorbers. Koni feels that you should utilize shocks and sway bars as tuning devices only after you get the spring package correct. You don’t start with shock absorbers. Koni suggests that you regard shock absorbers as a precision tool for that final handling correction."
Richard Newton
Last edited by rfn026; 09-25-2013 at 02:07 PM. Reason: sp
09-25-2013, 09:10 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Agreed that springs need to be fixed before shocks and you need someone who knows what shock valving to start with on a Corvette. There are lots of guys around that know what they are doing, you just have to find someone.
After that, shocks are not that hard to adjust. Follow the Basic Start-up Procedure on page 17 in the Penske Adjustable Shock Manual. You need some track time or an autocross test & tune day to go through this process once. After that you have a pretty decent feel for where you need to be and what the adjustments will do for you.
After that, shocks are not that hard to adjust. Follow the Basic Start-up Procedure on page 17 in the Penske Adjustable Shock Manual. You need some track time or an autocross test & tune day to go through this process once. After that you have a pretty decent feel for where you need to be and what the adjustments will do for you.
The following setup procedures are basic recommendations for reaching an initial starting point using double adjustable Penske Racing Shocks. This procedure is ideal for use on an open test schedule. A race weekend may not allow enough time. Start by making the compression adjustments as described below, until it feels right, then move to the rebound adjustments.
COMPRESSION
The idea is to set the compression damping forces to suit the bumps in critical areas, such as corners, corner exits and braking zones.
Increasing or lowering canister pressure (range 150 to 300 psi) can have an influence on support under braking, acceleration, and tire loading on turn in, and on mid-corner grip.
The idea is to tighten up the car, stabilize the platform and eliminate the floating "Cadillac feeling". This will also reduce the rate of body roll.
COMPRESSION
The idea is to set the compression damping forces to suit the bumps in critical areas, such as corners, corner exits and braking zones.
Increasing or lowering canister pressure (range 150 to 300 psi) can have an influence on support under braking, acceleration, and tire loading on turn in, and on mid-corner grip.
Step 1 - Set the rebound adjuster at full soft.
Step 2 - Starting with the compression setting at full soft, drive a lap then return to increase the bump settings. Continue this process of adding bump control to minimize the upsets until the car becomes harsh, loses tire compliance and traction. At this point you know that you have gone too far on the compression settings; back off one click.
REBOUNDStep 2 - Starting with the compression setting at full soft, drive a lap then return to increase the bump settings. Continue this process of adding bump control to minimize the upsets until the car becomes harsh, loses tire compliance and traction. At this point you know that you have gone too far on the compression settings; back off one click.
The idea is to tighten up the car, stabilize the platform and eliminate the floating "Cadillac feeling". This will also reduce the rate of body roll.
Step 1 - With the rebound setting at full soft, add 5 flats (8100) or clicks (8760) of rebound adjustment at a time, then return to continue the process until the car becomes "skittish" or the rear wheels hop under braking. At this point you know you have gone too far on the rebound settings, back off one flat at a time for final balance.
09-25-2013, 09:41 PM
#13
Autocross has to balance this need against running a set up that you are familiar with. You get 3 runs on a course at national events, that is it. I do my best to leave my penskes in their normal setting at national events. Unless something is really different, like solo nats in 2011 when we had about 30 slalom cones on one course. That needed a different set up for sure.
09-25-2013, 09:49 PM
#15
I have run Koni 3013 for about 3 years, and Penske 8300 for about 4 years. Penske's make the car a little easier to drive, but not much faster.
I've finished 4th at nats on Koni's and 3rd on penske's. Shocks play a small part in how you finish, but I did want to point out that you can do well nationally with Koni's.
I've finished 4th at nats on Koni's and 3rd on penske's. Shocks play a small part in how you finish, but I did want to point out that you can do well nationally with Koni's.
09-26-2013, 12:08 AM
#16
Pick a shock builder that you like working with and go with that. I use Performance shock and he custom builds anything you want. Doesn't cost any more than an off the shelf version of the same brand shock.
09-26-2013, 12:17 AM
#17
Race Director
Thread Starter
Agreed that springs need to be fixed before shocks and you need someone who knows what shock valving to start with on a Corvette. There are lots of guys around that know what they are doing, you just have to find someone.
After that, shocks are not that hard to adjust. Follow the Basic Start-up Procedure on page 17 in the Penske Adjustable Shock Manual. You need some track time or an autocross test & tune day to go through this process once. After that you have a pretty decent feel for where you need to be and what the adjustments will do for you.
After that, shocks are not that hard to adjust. Follow the Basic Start-up Procedure on page 17 in the Penske Adjustable Shock Manual. You need some track time or an autocross test & tune day to go through this process once. After that you have a pretty decent feel for where you need to be and what the adjustments will do for you.
The following setup procedures are basic recommendations for reaching an initial starting point using double adjustable Penske Racing Shocks. This procedure is ideal for use on an open test schedule. A race weekend may not allow enough time. Start by making the compression adjustments as described below, until it feels right, then move to the rebound adjustments.
COMPRESSION
The idea is to set the compression damping forces to suit the bumps in critical areas, such as corners, corner exits and braking zones.
Increasing or lowering canister pressure (range 150 to 300 psi) can have an influence on support under braking, acceleration, and tire loading on turn in, and on mid-corner grip.
The idea is to tighten up the car, stabilize the platform and eliminate the floating "Cadillac feeling". This will also reduce the rate of body roll.
COMPRESSION
The idea is to set the compression damping forces to suit the bumps in critical areas, such as corners, corner exits and braking zones.
Increasing or lowering canister pressure (range 150 to 300 psi) can have an influence on support under braking, acceleration, and tire loading on turn in, and on mid-corner grip.
Step 1 - Set the rebound adjuster at full soft.
Step 2 - Starting with the compression setting at full soft, drive a lap then return to increase the bump settings. Continue this process of adding bump control to minimize the upsets until the car becomes harsh, loses tire compliance and traction. At this point you know that you have gone too far on the compression settings; back off one click.
REBOUNDStep 2 - Starting with the compression setting at full soft, drive a lap then return to increase the bump settings. Continue this process of adding bump control to minimize the upsets until the car becomes harsh, loses tire compliance and traction. At this point you know that you have gone too far on the compression settings; back off one click.
The idea is to tighten up the car, stabilize the platform and eliminate the floating "Cadillac feeling". This will also reduce the rate of body roll.
Step 1 - With the rebound setting at full soft, add 5 flats (8100) or clicks (8760) of rebound adjustment at a time, then return to continue the process until the car becomes "skittish" or the rear wheels hop under braking. At this point you know you have gone too far on the rebound settings, back off one flat at a time for final balance.
I have some new competition coming next year and I need (on the avg. course) .4 to .6 sec to stay ahead. The shocks I have on now are good single adjust ones, but I know there are better.
I have had a multi national champ ride with me and (on a "good" day) remark that there's a little time to gain driving wise (no glaring errors) but he felt there was more time in developing the car for an ssp car.
Thanks for the input guys.
09-26-2013, 12:24 AM
#18
Race Director
Thread Starter
I have run Koni 3013 for about 3 years, and Penske 8300 for about 4 years. Penske's make the car a little easier to drive, but not much faster.
I've finished 4th at nats on Koni's and 3rd on penske's. Shocks play a small part in how you finish, but I did want to point out that you can do well nationally with Koni's.
I've finished 4th at nats on Koni's and 3rd on penske's. Shocks play a small part in how you finish, but I did want to point out that you can do well nationally with Koni's.
I did not feel any "personal attention" from that mega corp.
I know guys win on them, so maybe I am being short sighted, but that's me.
I called up Penske and, I swear, I spent 20 min with a tech guy Aaron L. about building some shocks for my car, they know customer service and I'm not even a customer yet.
Last edited by froggy47; 09-26-2013 at 12:27 AM.
09-26-2013, 01:06 AM
#19
Racer
09-26-2013, 10:17 AM
#20
Supporting Vendor
I just put a set of MCS on my car and will be trying them for the first time this weekend. I will update early next week.
http://www.motioncontrolsuspension.com/
http://www.motioncontrolsuspension.com/