Road Racing the LS & dealing with oiling issues
10-04-2013, 09:53 AM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Road Racing the LS & dealing with oiling issues
FYI
For the past seven years we have been road racing LS1/6's in ASA/GTA types and also our tube frame Corvette.
Until recently we had been using the stock pressure pump/scavenge dry sump system with both the ASA RAZOR pump and later with a similar Barnes type. We have used the ASA moroso pan except on the Corvette which got an ARE pan.
Recently we went to a full dry sump (3 stage AVIAID) and a modified ASA Moroso pan (added a second scavenge pick up). The motor was a LS6 with 600 lift cam, Advanced Induction heads etc at about 11 to 1. Made 550 hp. The motor was dyno'd and ran fine. In August at Daytona the motor lasted one lap before losing oil pressure. The driver saw it, shut it off and prevented catastrophic damage. The bearings were shot, and crank needed polishing but otherwise ok.
The motor starved for oil, but why? The engine builder checked the lines and installation and found nothing wrong. The motor ran great on the dyno.
The engine builder refreshed the motor, replaced the Moroso pan with an ARE, replaced all the lines and ran everything himself.
We had always used about 12 qts in the system, this would also be typical of what we used with our dry sump conventional small block chevy's without issue.
The engine builder suggested that the LS motors are retaining much more oil in the motor than conventional SBC's and that we add additional capacity. We added about 15 gts of Joe Gibbs Racing oil this time and raced Daytona this past weekend. No oiling issues whatsoever, the car ran flawlessly and FAST. 1:56 on ten inch slicks, with the wrong spring rates in the suspension. That is extremely quick for a 550 HP car.
The set up is now:
3 stage full dry sump block mount AVIAID pump with HTD drive, ATI,
damper, ARE aluminum pan, tank mounted in right rear in front of tire.
Daytona with its' banking and extreme transistions, horseshoe turns and fast sweeper is probably one of the greatest tests for an oiling system.
We now believe we have the right combination for our wheel to wheel needs.
The single stage scavenge system seemed to work OK up to about the 450-500 hp level but we started seeing issues after that. These systems have the long serpentine type belt, we began to feel that we were starting to see some cavitation as a result of slippage in this system.
All our cars will get the full dry sump from now on. Worth the extra money for full on race cars.
For the past seven years we have been road racing LS1/6's in ASA/GTA types and also our tube frame Corvette.
Until recently we had been using the stock pressure pump/scavenge dry sump system with both the ASA RAZOR pump and later with a similar Barnes type. We have used the ASA moroso pan except on the Corvette which got an ARE pan.
Recently we went to a full dry sump (3 stage AVIAID) and a modified ASA Moroso pan (added a second scavenge pick up). The motor was a LS6 with 600 lift cam, Advanced Induction heads etc at about 11 to 1. Made 550 hp. The motor was dyno'd and ran fine. In August at Daytona the motor lasted one lap before losing oil pressure. The driver saw it, shut it off and prevented catastrophic damage. The bearings were shot, and crank needed polishing but otherwise ok.
The motor starved for oil, but why? The engine builder checked the lines and installation and found nothing wrong. The motor ran great on the dyno.
The engine builder refreshed the motor, replaced the Moroso pan with an ARE, replaced all the lines and ran everything himself.
We had always used about 12 qts in the system, this would also be typical of what we used with our dry sump conventional small block chevy's without issue.
The engine builder suggested that the LS motors are retaining much more oil in the motor than conventional SBC's and that we add additional capacity. We added about 15 gts of Joe Gibbs Racing oil this time and raced Daytona this past weekend. No oiling issues whatsoever, the car ran flawlessly and FAST. 1:56 on ten inch slicks, with the wrong spring rates in the suspension. That is extremely quick for a 550 HP car.
The set up is now:
3 stage full dry sump block mount AVIAID pump with HTD drive, ATI,
damper, ARE aluminum pan, tank mounted in right rear in front of tire.
Daytona with its' banking and extreme transistions, horseshoe turns and fast sweeper is probably one of the greatest tests for an oiling system.
We now believe we have the right combination for our wheel to wheel needs.
The single stage scavenge system seemed to work OK up to about the 450-500 hp level but we started seeing issues after that. These systems have the long serpentine type belt, we began to feel that we were starting to see some cavitation as a result of slippage in this system.
All our cars will get the full dry sump from now on. Worth the extra money for full on race cars.
10-10-2013, 08:32 AM
#8
Drifting
Thread Starter
After talking with Woody again, he said it was actually 14 qts. The tank is only a 3 gallon. I am surprised it didn't puke some out, but it did not. We may switch this to a 5 gal. tank.
My new build (tube frame C3) will get a 3 or 4 stage with a 5 gal tank.
Will keep the oil at the current level on all tracks as long as it is not puking.
My new build (tube frame C3) will get a 3 or 4 stage with a 5 gal tank.
Will keep the oil at the current level on all tracks as long as it is not puking.
10-12-2013, 10:26 AM
#9
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After talking with Woody again, he said it was actually 14 qts. The tank is only a 3 gallon. I am surprised it didn't puke some out, but it did not. We may switch this to a 5 gal. tank.
My new build (tube frame C3) will get a 3 or 4 stage with a 5 gal tank.
Will keep the oil at the current level on all tracks as long as it is not puking.
My new build (tube frame C3) will get a 3 or 4 stage with a 5 gal tank.
Will keep the oil at the current level on all tracks as long as it is not puking.
10-12-2013, 09:52 PM
#10
I have read that the right side of the engine (pass. side) gets pressurized by engine windage (crank, piston pumping, etc). The left side, no so much (actually I suppose it would be under a bit of a vacuum if the other side is under pressure).
So, the engine starves for oil quicker in left hand turns (oil has more trouble draining back on the right side even in neutral G).
I have also read of some experimentation in venting the right side valve cover to the pan, above the pan oil level. This probably isn't going to be feasible with a dry sump, but perhaps there is somewhere else you could vent it. Caution is advised since it seems to be somewhat of a mystery as to exactly what is going on inside the engine with regards to crankcase air flow at high RPM.
Other fixes/patches might be enlarging/deflashing/deburring/polishing drainbacks on the right side, or restricting oil to the top end (via aftermarket pushrods or what-have-you).
Interesting discussion: http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37170
So, the engine starves for oil quicker in left hand turns (oil has more trouble draining back on the right side even in neutral G).
I have also read of some experimentation in venting the right side valve cover to the pan, above the pan oil level. This probably isn't going to be feasible with a dry sump, but perhaps there is somewhere else you could vent it. Caution is advised since it seems to be somewhat of a mystery as to exactly what is going on inside the engine with regards to crankcase air flow at high RPM.
Other fixes/patches might be enlarging/deflashing/deburring/polishing drainbacks on the right side, or restricting oil to the top end (via aftermarket pushrods or what-have-you).
Interesting discussion: http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=37170