Supercharged111

I've always felt this is a weakness of mine. I feel I was better about pre-emptively unwinding when supervised, but when unsupervised I try to listen to/feel the tires to tell me how much I need to unwind instead of robotically unwinding as I apply throttle. Reason being, every corner is different. Sometimes a really late apex forces such an initial turn in that I'm going slow enough to warrant full throttle and no unwind. Other times, I'm already at the lateral adhesion limit but it's time to get on the gas. What's really got me beating myself up over this is the 4th gen CMC Camaro I bought. It's loose, very loose. Despite that, it's very easy to drive loose and I have yet to spin it out. What happens is ~10 minutes into a race, the tires get greasy and the car begins to understeer and oversteer. I seem to have altered my driving style to cover up all the understeer with oversteer. I trail deep to initiate oversteer and from there it's up to the throttle. It's smooth, corner exit is generally achieved with zero counter, so it allows me to reduce the angle through the corner which is good, but the fundamentalist in me is screaming that this is just wrong. It feels good, it's fun, it looks cool, but it burns tires and can't be the fastest way through the corner can it? This is one hurdle I want to clear quickly to move up.

LateBreak

Sounds to me like you need to change the setup on the car rather than trying to cover it up. It's good to know how to drive through a problem, but you'll be faster as a driver if you're able to diagnose the car and fix the setup.

Where is the understeer coming on? How large are your swaybars? A larger rear bar or a smaller front bar may be all that's needed, assuming that you're on a square tire setup and the front end geometry is right.

Bill32

Yep, and you need tire temps (done correctly) to help answer these.

CHJ In Virginia

Fix the car setup first per the above posts. What type of tires are you running ? Scrubs ? If they are getting greasy only 10 minutes in, maybe they are already heat cycled out and new ones are in order ? IMHO fix chassis setup and tire problems rather than trying to figure out how to drive through them.

Rookieracer

Tire temps? Drop pressures? Nitrogen?

IMHO,

If all correct and your at the limit of what the tires can do, then unwinding the wheel premptively as you apply throttle allows you to get back to the throttle earlier than waiting for the chassis.

Solofast

A lot of problems that folks think are happening on corner exit actually are the result of things that are done much earlier in the corner.

I've found a lot of drivers want to feel "comfortable" in that if the car is rotating they are comfortable with that. That leads to a tendency to "pitch" the car more on corner entry to "get it to rotate". Then they tend to spend the rest of the corner "catching" the car.

This is obviously not fast but it takes away a lot of nervousness on corner entry where they are concerned that the car won't turn in as they would like it too..

Then they are slow thru the middle of the corner and are hammering the power early on exit because the can can "take the power". Of course the car can take the power, they are slow and that's why it can.

Trailing too deep is much the same thing. You're going too slow in mid corner and slowing down too much.. Keep the momentum up and don't slow down so much. If you have a setup problem that is making the car too loose then you need to fix too, because if you aren't comfortable carrying speed you really can't exit fast.

90% of cornering is getting into the corner properly, be properly placed and have good mid-corner speed. The rest is just rolling smoothly on the power and unwinding the steering.

If you do it right it will feel much more natural. If you can use the throttle as an "on/off" switch you are too slow in mid corner, and too slow in mid-corner is because you didn't enter properly...

wtb-z

Sounds like you are doing a decent job of driving a beam axle car. *shrug*

Supercharged111

The understeer only happens when the tires get greasy. Mid corner with maintenance throttle, the car feels good. It's when I even consider applying throttle the car steps out, I just feel it doesn't dig hard enough and I'm losing momentum when I'm sideways.

I do know a guy with a tire probe, I just didn't coordinate with him last time out. I was too pumped up rocking my new R badge and not getting my *** handed to me.

I ran RA1 last year, this year will be RA1 and RR. I don't have enough experience with this tire to know if they cycle out or not, most people say they're good to the last drop so I don't know what to think here. Could be the whole problem.

I'm certainly not entering too slow on most corners, I almost wonder if I'm entering too fast. I worked really hard on coming in as hot as possible last year and I wonder now if it isn't time to pick my battles there. A perfect example of what I struggled most with was an off camber decreasing radius corner, this truly needs to be trailed into as deeply as possible IMO. On the first few laps, I could trail in deep, transition smoothly to the gas, and step out little if at all. Gone. By lap 4 or 5, as I'm about to get off the brakes entirely, the car is already stepping out. Well it's time to throttle on, so I do anyway. The front still neatly clips the apex, and by the time I'm on the exit curbing the car is usually straight or close enough and I'm gone. It's just not as fast as the first few laps, and it makes me wonder if I shouldn't set the car up for how it acts mid race. My biggest fear is making the car slower.

I feel I should mention that if I'm blowing through a fast corner in 4th gear, the car feels great even on greaseballs.

And then there's this, could be it too.

Bill32

If you change something and it makes the car slower - you just learned something and that's not a bad thing (it's why we spend money to do test days on the racecars.
This really sounds like you're overdriving the tires and getting them too hot but without being in the car with you, it's hard to pinpoint. I have seen this hot corner entry killing lap times quite a bit with both students and racedrivers that I coach (18 years as an instructor). The old axiom "Slow In, Fast Out" is still the fast way around the track.

Solofast had some pretty good comments here.

Also, when you feel that the tires are getting greasy, slow down for a lap, run full speed on the straights, take it easy in the corners for a full lap - do the tires come back? This and finding out what the tires are doing (temps) will tell you a lot.

It's impossible to say if "unwinding the wheel" will do anything without being along for the ride and observing your entire technique thru the corners. Have Fun.

urtoslo

Ever try to do in the rain what you get away with in the dry? Not unwinding the wheel to exit to the outsde of a turn and applying power may cause your car to spin if it's wet out, even if it is perfectly fine in the dry.

Also, if your wheels are not straight (holding a tighter radius longer than necessary), you're not going as fast as if they were straight. Get them straight as soon as you can coming out of a turn and you'll be faster. Use the whole track in a turn, from turn-in to apex to exit. Can't go fast if you're pinching off the exit of a turn.

Supercharged111

Solofast had some excellent points, I tried to imply that by making my reply to him longer. It really seems like a passenger seat would be a great investment. One of the faster GTS drivers has offered to throw his datalogger in the car while we take turns driving to see what I might be doing wrong. I haven't had the money all winter to take him up on it, but I think I might learn something. No, I will learn something.

It's unfair to say I'm pinching the car on exit because I'm still unwinding as I apply the throttle, I just lead with the throttle and I'm wondering if this is the wrong thing to do. Conversely, I fear if I lead with the wheel, I'll miss my apex. Another fine point I'm hoping to address is the fact that the less steering angle you have, the less rolling resistance you have, part of why I must conquer this better.

RapidC84B

Sounds like you're doing a good job of driving around a car that isn't setup optimally. If you have a car that pushes bad one way to dive around it is trail braking and forcing it to rotate. I'm not familiar with CMC's rules (I race ST3)... what can you do with the shocks/bars?

As for unwinding the wheel... I never consciously think about that. I get on the power as early as possible and drive the car. When setup nicely it will drift to track out under WOT with little counter steering if any.

If your car is pushing you can try a smaller front bar, or a larger rear one, but the larger rear one won't help with hooking up on corner exit. You could try tweaking the shocks, but I'm not sure CMC allows adjustables.

SouthernSon

Are you saying you have more track out option to unwind further? If so, I would say turn in earlier and faster, unwind as track will let you and apply as much throttle as the rear will take. As others have said, you also need to balance the suspension better.

Maybe I can expound a little: Every turn should have the driver using all of the track out if the previous straight allows one to build sufficient speed in most cases. Things like off camber, subsequent turn in, extra wide parking lot carousel and such make exceptions. After establishing that turn in point and speed, you can start working on suspension setup to allow your use of throttle as quickly as possible upon entering turn. Don't wait until the car settles to apply throttle. If you do, you have waited too late.

FASTFATBOY

Ever seen Will Stukas drive a FAST Ai car?

Looks like a video game lol.

SouthernSon

Good driving skill unfortunately his tires were completely shot/greasy toward the end.

Supercharged111

Makes me think I'm not as far off as I thought. Looks like he has a loooong 2nd gear.

BryanPendleton

I'm no professional driver by any means, but that video just looks like he is driving too aggressive. He appears fast and seems to be a confident driver, but I gotta think he is loosing alot of time oversteering in the corners all the time. Then all the extra heat he is putting into the tires because of that driving style seems to hurt him even worse towards the end, where he was struggling to accelerate on corner exit.

Bill32

That's how a racecar is driven on the limit.

If you're not drifting the car in the faster turns, you're not running the fastest laps possible. That's why he's making those small steering corrections.

RedLS1GTO

Are you racing TT where 1 lap is all that matters or are you running an endurance race? Makes a big difference. What works for 1 might not work for the other.

Blowing the tires off through every corner might net you a fast lap... but it may or may not be the way to get the most out of a full run. I'd venture to say that it won't take too many laps for a smooth, consistent driver to be running much faster times than the guy sliding through every corner.

SouthernSon

This!