C6Z brakes worthwhile upgrade on C5Z
#1
Instructor
Thread Starter
C6Z brakes worthwhile upgrade on C5Z
Guys I did a search and did not find much information on this subject. I am trying to find out if upgrading the stock C5Z brakes on my 04 Z to brakes on any year C6Z or grand sport would be worth the investment or not. Besides the obvious 6/4 piston setup what are the advantages and disadvantages of bolting on the C6Z stuff onto my C5Z? Would it be more beneficial just to upgrade the front brakes to a 6 piston Wilwood setup and leave the rear brakes alone? Sure I would love an expensive full floating BBK but the finances for such a kit is not in the cards right now. Also will C6Z brakes clear CCW classics?
Thanks for all of the input.
Shane
Thanks for all of the input.
Shane
#3
Instructor
Thread Starter
Shane
#4
No... you'd be better off buying a decent aftermarket kit or doing the basic upgrades (cooling, fluid, pads, lines) to the OEM calipers. The C6Z calipers use annoying thin padlets and the rotors aren't directional.
#6
Racer
Contact olitho on the forum here. He just upgraded from 4 piston apracing to the 6 piston and is selling his 4 piston setup... That would be your best upgrade for the cost.
#7
Safety Car
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C6Z brakes will require a change to an 18" wheel on the front of the car. Padlets are a problem cost wise and longevity wise if you are going to track the car. Best bet is either the LG GStop Wilwood or KNS Brakes Wilwood conversion for the front. Great value for the $ with much better brakeing than the stock calipers.
#9
Burning Brakes
C6Z brakes are a huge improvement over the stock C5Z. You are not limited to padlets because many manufacturers make a full pad the fits in there. For the money you cannot beat them. There are some upgrades thats should be done (I believe upgrading the stock pistons) but if you look around and figure the cost to upgrade vs a big brake kit like Brembo or Stoptech, you will see that it's about 1/3 the cost (if not more). Are you currently experiencing overheating, fade or accererated wear? I race W2W and use Stoptechs but have at least 3 friends who are using the C6Z brakes with no complaints.
#10
Drifting
StopTech makes one piece pads, front and read, for the C6Z brakes.
I know - I have them on my car. And they ROCK. And are a lot less of a PITA to change out pads, without all those padlets falling all over the place.
I got a great deal on mine, the PO had even changed out the pistons to the Doug Rippie stainless steel pistons.
I know - I have them on my car. And they ROCK. And are a lot less of a PITA to change out pads, without all those padlets falling all over the place.
I got a great deal on mine, the PO had even changed out the pistons to the Doug Rippie stainless steel pistons.
#11
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17
NCM Member '09
Another idea would be a C6-Z51 brake swap...
Bigger rotors and abutments, re-use the stock C5 calipers, which are plenty functional for a mostly street car. Throw on a decent set of pads from Hawk, Stoptech, Carbotech, etc, much cheaper than a big brake upgrade until you outgrow them.
Bigger rotors and abutments, re-use the stock C5 calipers, which are plenty functional for a mostly street car. Throw on a decent set of pads from Hawk, Stoptech, Carbotech, etc, much cheaper than a big brake upgrade until you outgrow them.
#12
Pro
Another idea would be a C6-Z51 brake swap...
Bigger rotors and abutments, re-use the stock C5 calipers, which are plenty functional for a mostly street car. Throw on a decent set of pads from Hawk, Stoptech, Carbotech, etc, much cheaper than a big brake upgrade until you outgrow them.
Bigger rotors and abutments, re-use the stock C5 calipers, which are plenty functional for a mostly street car. Throw on a decent set of pads from Hawk, Stoptech, Carbotech, etc, much cheaper than a big brake upgrade until you outgrow them.
#13
Drifting
Are they better than stock C5? Yes. Are they worth the upgrade for the money for track days? Not IMO. They are heavy with a lot of inspiring weight and if you're going to spend the money I think you're better off spending a little more and getting a BBK. I notice most guys in the advanced group at Sebring with C6 Z's are not running the stock brakes. What does that tell you?
#14
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St. Jude Donor '08-'09-'10-'11-'12-'13-'14-'15-'16-'17
NCM Member '09
http://www.gmpartshouse.com/partslis...tte-parts-list
I almost went this way, but wanted the C6z stuff to fill-up the 19" wheels.
#15
Burning Brakes
The OP stated he has a C5Z. The front caliper IS the same caliper as the C6 Z51. The rear has a slightly larger rotor but uses the same caliper. It is a complete waste of money to put these on. I can tell you from personal experience.
#16
Instructor
Thread Starter
C6Z brakes are a huge improvement over the stock C5Z. You are not limited to padlets because many manufacturers make a full pad the fits in there. For the money you cannot beat them. There are some upgrades thats should be done (I believe upgrading the stock pistons) but if you look around and figure the cost to upgrade vs a big brake kit like Brembo or Stoptech, you will see that it's about 1/3 the cost (if not more). Are you currently experiencing overheating, fade or accererated wear? I race W2W and use Stoptechs but have at least 3 friends who are using the C6Z brakes with no complaints.
For the same cost of the SL6R setup I can get used complete front and rear c6z brakes setup.
What I experienced at Nelson Ledges was when I'd enter the braking zone it felt like no matter how soft or little I'd press the brake pedal the ABS and stability control would take over. It was kinda annoying, it didn't do that every turn but it was more then I'd want. That was my first time tracking that car so maybe it's something I'm not used to. That or I was driving the car harder and with full slicks and gave the computer a heart attack lol. I was running in competitive driving mode.
Shane
#17
Supporting Vendor
Over the past 10 years I've worked with literally hundreds of Corvette customers upgrading their brakes. In the past two weeks I've had two C5 customers upgrade to our AP Racing six piston Endurance BBK. One was previously using C6 Z51 brakes, and the other a C6Z06 brake kit. Both told me that they were sick and tired of messing around with constantly replacing discs, bleeding brakes, changing pads, and rebuilding calipers. That is the common tale I hear with about 95% of my C5 and C6 customers. Depending on the tracks you run, your experience level, and your car (power, tires, aero, etc.), you could likely get away with running a Z51 or Z06 brake package on the track. Both of those systems are compromised in some manner for track duty however. I addressed some of these shortcomings in a recent blog post:
Can you get away with a Z51 or Z06 brake package on your car? Yes, but a bit of baggage comes with going that route. My advice based on over a decade's experience helping my customers prep their cars (and prepping and tracking my own C5Z06), is to get our front brake kit and be done with it. My customers who have done so essentially don't have to think about their brakes anymore. They just go out and drive...very little bleeding, no cracked discs, no scrambling around like a crazy person between track sessions, and a huge boost in confidence in every brake zone= faster lap times.
The initial cost of a BBK is a bit higher, but the long-term costs over a couple of seasons balance out vs. going the other route. In the end, you'll spend less money, have fewer headaches, and and enjoy your time at the track more if you go the BBK route. I wrote a blog post that addresses this issue as well:
Big Brake Kit Benefits you may not have Considered
In the end, almost every single C5 and C6 customer of mine tells me, "I wish I had just gone with your big brake kit X years ago and been done with it." Take that for what it's worth.
If you owned and tracked a C5 or base C6, you probably view the front OEM brake system as a weakness of the car. They were more than adequate for street use, but didn't really live up to the performance potential of the platform overall, particularly on the Z06, or after the car was modified. While that isn't an uncommon situation with factory brakes, there simply wasn't much 'headroom' built into the system. The front calipers were heavy, two piston sliders with aluminum pistons and dust boots. They didn't respond well to heavy track use, and tended to fatigue and 'clamshell' (lose their stiffness and spread open like a clam) after repeated trips to several hundred degrees F. The pad shape these calipers used had a reasonably adequate volume, surface area, and thickness, but the shortcomings of the overall system took their toll on pad longevity and effectiveness.
On all variants of the C5 and the base C6, a conventional one-piece 325x32mm, 19 lb. front disc was used. While on paper these front discs were large enough in mass to handle a significant amount of heat, their simplistic, cost-driven design prevented them from adequately doing the job on the track. The vane design on these discs was a pillar vane, which can be thought of as a group of posts or pillars connecting the two disc halves together. The pillars are not organized linearly from the outside to the inside of the disc, and turbulence is created as air flows through and among them. Pillar vane discs are therefore not particularly well suited to heat evacuation. The goals of a pillar vane design are disc face stability for low nvh (noise, vibration, harshness), and a low cost of production. The discs are non-directional, and the same part number is used on both sides of the car. For reference, below is a picture of an OEM pillar vane disc stacked with an AP Racing competition disc. You can see the considerable difference in air gap, and the number, shape, and direction of the vanes.
For the C6 Z51, the front disc size was increased to 340x32mm, weighing in at roughly 22 lbs. The added mass of the Z51 front disc provided a larger heat sink, but the same design deficiencies of the smaller disc were still present. It therefore wasn't much more efficient at removing heat from the system when being flogged.
Some of the common results of running the C5/Base C6 system hard on the track were severely tapered brake pads, pads quickly burning up, pad fade (firm pedal, but car won't slow), fluid fade (soft brake pedal due to boiled fluid), cooked dust boots, and quickly cracked discs. All of these problems are directly related to the overall brake system having inadequate heat capacity and cooling for heavy track use. When the OEM brake system was retained and tracked/raced, the system required considerable maintenance, and owners wasted a significant amount of time and money bleeding brakes, replacing pads and discs, and losing valuable track time.
Owners tried to work through these issues via several means: installing stainless steel pistons in the OEM calipers, stainless steel brake lines, high temperature race pads and brake fluid, and aftermarket brake discs. Ultimately though, most serious track enthusiasts were far better served by replacing the entire front brake system with an aftermarket kit designed specifically to handle the rigors of track use. Our Essex Designed AP Racing Competition Brake Kits have also been a popular choice for all of the reasons outlined above.
On the rear of the C5/Base C6, a simple one piston slider caliper and 305x26mm, 14.2 lb. discs were employed. Given their layout, modern Corvettes are not particularly hard on rear brakes, and many people found the rears adequate. These discs were on the small side for a car of this potential however, and again became more problematic as the car was modified and run on the track. A substantial number of owners did run into heat-related issues. Combined with the diminutive discs, the pads on the rear were quite small in terms of overall volume and surface area (see below), which can lead to heat dissipation issues. Also of note, drivers who left Competition Mode engaged ran into rear brake overheating from time-to-time, as the car tried to correct yaw by engaging the inner rear wheel brakes.
For the Z51 rear brakes, the caliper remained the same, but the rear disc diameter was increased to a more adequate 330x26mm, and 20 lbs., alleviating some of the heat issues. For those whose problems weren't solved, there are a number of options available, including a complete Essex Designed rear competition brake system we'll be releasing shortly.
And for a final note to those who care about aesthetics, the C5 & Base C6 brakes were just plain ugly!
C6Z06- An upgraded brake system?
Everyone knows that the C6 Z06 is an absolute monster on track. The LS7 and improved chassis turned the platform into a bullet, and it's not uncommon for the C6 Z to dominate the time sheets on any given day. To match the prodigious output of the LS7, GM 'upgraded' the brakes to a completely new system. While the general design direction of the new brake system was correct, the implementation was not, resulting again in an inadequate system for a car with such an extreme performance envelope.
The front and rear calipers were fixed six and four piston units by PBR, a step in the proper direction. The goal was to provide a firmer pedal feel, more total pad volume, and more leading pad edges to bite into the disc. The final product didn't work out quite as planned however. Despite looking the business, the front and rear calipers were heavy, not terribly stiff, and overly complex featuring the now dreaded brake 'padlets,' which provided inadequate volume for heat absorption (most owners run a one-piece pad when available).
While the calipers presented a list of problems, the discs were an even bigger problem. At 355x32mm, the front disc size was an excellent choice. It's been proven over and over since the C6 Z's release that a quality, optimized, floating 2-piece racing 355x32mm disc is a perfect choice for even the fastest cars and drivers. A one-piece, drilled disc that has vanes pointing in the wrong direction isn't such a great choice however, but that's what came on the car from the factory. If you drive your car on the track, 'just say no' to drilled discs! They will crack more readily than a slotted disc, regardless of whether or not the holes were cast into the disc (a popular myth propagated by Porsche road car owners worldwide, but refuted by just about every winning racecar in the world). Ultimately, someone in marketing at GM won the battle for the drilled discs because they looked really cool. Even more egregious than the drilled holes however, was the fact that the same directional disc was used on both front corners of the car. In other words, the directional vanes were actually spinning in the wrong direction on one side of the car!
- See more at: http://www.essexpartsblog.com/news/c....ARJysqRp.dpuf
On all variants of the C5 and the base C6, a conventional one-piece 325x32mm, 19 lb. front disc was used. While on paper these front discs were large enough in mass to handle a significant amount of heat, their simplistic, cost-driven design prevented them from adequately doing the job on the track. The vane design on these discs was a pillar vane, which can be thought of as a group of posts or pillars connecting the two disc halves together. The pillars are not organized linearly from the outside to the inside of the disc, and turbulence is created as air flows through and among them. Pillar vane discs are therefore not particularly well suited to heat evacuation. The goals of a pillar vane design are disc face stability for low nvh (noise, vibration, harshness), and a low cost of production. The discs are non-directional, and the same part number is used on both sides of the car. For reference, below is a picture of an OEM pillar vane disc stacked with an AP Racing competition disc. You can see the considerable difference in air gap, and the number, shape, and direction of the vanes.
For the C6 Z51, the front disc size was increased to 340x32mm, weighing in at roughly 22 lbs. The added mass of the Z51 front disc provided a larger heat sink, but the same design deficiencies of the smaller disc were still present. It therefore wasn't much more efficient at removing heat from the system when being flogged.
Some of the common results of running the C5/Base C6 system hard on the track were severely tapered brake pads, pads quickly burning up, pad fade (firm pedal, but car won't slow), fluid fade (soft brake pedal due to boiled fluid), cooked dust boots, and quickly cracked discs. All of these problems are directly related to the overall brake system having inadequate heat capacity and cooling for heavy track use. When the OEM brake system was retained and tracked/raced, the system required considerable maintenance, and owners wasted a significant amount of time and money bleeding brakes, replacing pads and discs, and losing valuable track time.
Owners tried to work through these issues via several means: installing stainless steel pistons in the OEM calipers, stainless steel brake lines, high temperature race pads and brake fluid, and aftermarket brake discs. Ultimately though, most serious track enthusiasts were far better served by replacing the entire front brake system with an aftermarket kit designed specifically to handle the rigors of track use. Our Essex Designed AP Racing Competition Brake Kits have also been a popular choice for all of the reasons outlined above.
On the rear of the C5/Base C6, a simple one piston slider caliper and 305x26mm, 14.2 lb. discs were employed. Given their layout, modern Corvettes are not particularly hard on rear brakes, and many people found the rears adequate. These discs were on the small side for a car of this potential however, and again became more problematic as the car was modified and run on the track. A substantial number of owners did run into heat-related issues. Combined with the diminutive discs, the pads on the rear were quite small in terms of overall volume and surface area (see below), which can lead to heat dissipation issues. Also of note, drivers who left Competition Mode engaged ran into rear brake overheating from time-to-time, as the car tried to correct yaw by engaging the inner rear wheel brakes.
For the Z51 rear brakes, the caliper remained the same, but the rear disc diameter was increased to a more adequate 330x26mm, and 20 lbs., alleviating some of the heat issues. For those whose problems weren't solved, there are a number of options available, including a complete Essex Designed rear competition brake system we'll be releasing shortly.
And for a final note to those who care about aesthetics, the C5 & Base C6 brakes were just plain ugly!
C6Z06- An upgraded brake system?
Everyone knows that the C6 Z06 is an absolute monster on track. The LS7 and improved chassis turned the platform into a bullet, and it's not uncommon for the C6 Z to dominate the time sheets on any given day. To match the prodigious output of the LS7, GM 'upgraded' the brakes to a completely new system. While the general design direction of the new brake system was correct, the implementation was not, resulting again in an inadequate system for a car with such an extreme performance envelope.
The front and rear calipers were fixed six and four piston units by PBR, a step in the proper direction. The goal was to provide a firmer pedal feel, more total pad volume, and more leading pad edges to bite into the disc. The final product didn't work out quite as planned however. Despite looking the business, the front and rear calipers were heavy, not terribly stiff, and overly complex featuring the now dreaded brake 'padlets,' which provided inadequate volume for heat absorption (most owners run a one-piece pad when available).
While the calipers presented a list of problems, the discs were an even bigger problem. At 355x32mm, the front disc size was an excellent choice. It's been proven over and over since the C6 Z's release that a quality, optimized, floating 2-piece racing 355x32mm disc is a perfect choice for even the fastest cars and drivers. A one-piece, drilled disc that has vanes pointing in the wrong direction isn't such a great choice however, but that's what came on the car from the factory. If you drive your car on the track, 'just say no' to drilled discs! They will crack more readily than a slotted disc, regardless of whether or not the holes were cast into the disc (a popular myth propagated by Porsche road car owners worldwide, but refuted by just about every winning racecar in the world). Ultimately, someone in marketing at GM won the battle for the drilled discs because they looked really cool. Even more egregious than the drilled holes however, was the fact that the same directional disc was used on both front corners of the car. In other words, the directional vanes were actually spinning in the wrong direction on one side of the car!
- See more at: http://www.essexpartsblog.com/news/c....ARJysqRp.dpuf
The initial cost of a BBK is a bit higher, but the long-term costs over a couple of seasons balance out vs. going the other route. In the end, you'll spend less money, have fewer headaches, and and enjoy your time at the track more if you go the BBK route. I wrote a blog post that addresses this issue as well:
Big Brake Kit Benefits you may not have Considered
In the end, almost every single C5 and C6 customer of mine tells me, "I wish I had just gone with your big brake kit X years ago and been done with it." Take that for what it's worth.
#19
Racer
I agree with high volts z06. For your purposes, the C6Z brakes are perfect. As you get into competitive racing, you can upgrade. At $1300-$1500 all the way around including rotors,nothing comes close. You can spend that much on rotors.
#20
Op, not just no but hell no. Not ever unless it's just for show. C6z brakes are complete garbage. Someone's uncle had to get that contract with GM. C5 brakes are better.
Rotors poor quality designed wrong (1 way vanes) extremely heavy yet prone to failure
Calipers heavy and flimsy, hot spots on fluid, they will warp and flex open at the bottom so far that they will spit the grossly negligent designed pads and pistons - and fluid out on track - leaving you with zero brakes. Zero.
You can bandaid with different brand rotors, single pads, ducts etc., but you are polishing a turd. Don't even think of it.
I have stop techs on mine, saved over 20 pounds but stop radically better on track. Calipers last 20 times as long, rotors 5 times, pads about 8 times as long as stock z06 stuff.... And you probably won't die because they won't spit the pistons literally so far out of the flexed caliper that they jam sideways and all your fluid runs out the piston hole. What a bonus!
Rotors poor quality designed wrong (1 way vanes) extremely heavy yet prone to failure
Calipers heavy and flimsy, hot spots on fluid, they will warp and flex open at the bottom so far that they will spit the grossly negligent designed pads and pistons - and fluid out on track - leaving you with zero brakes. Zero.
You can bandaid with different brand rotors, single pads, ducts etc., but you are polishing a turd. Don't even think of it.
I have stop techs on mine, saved over 20 pounds but stop radically better on track. Calipers last 20 times as long, rotors 5 times, pads about 8 times as long as stock z06 stuff.... And you probably won't die because they won't spit the pistons literally so far out of the flexed caliper that they jam sideways and all your fluid runs out the piston hole. What a bonus!