ALIGNMENT sheet
#1
Racer
Thread Starter
#2
Drifting
Virtually all commercial alignment racks use positive (+) for toe-in and negative (-) for toe-out, and that is the normal convention (positive toe is toe-in and negative toe is toe-out). Pfadt's published recommendations use negative values for toe-in. Looking at your sheet that you posted, I would bet that the car has toe-out in the rear.
#3
Race Director
with acrace
Here's a link to Pfadt's alignment sheet:
http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-c...-9.12.2011.pdf
When you gave the sheet to your alignment tech, if you didn't highlight the part on the Pfadt sheet at the top about "Negative toe measurements indicate toe-in", then your alignment guy probably used the industry-wide convention of negative (-) meaning toe-out.
If you do actually have toe-out for the rear, you definitely want to get it aligned again - you DO NOT want toe-out for the rear. A little toe-in will help keep the car settled during acceleration out of turns.
BTW, although Pfadt's specs have zero or a very slight toe-in up front, many track hounds like a slight toe-out up front for a crisper turn-in. So....it looks like you have essentially zero toe up front, which is fine for street or track - especially high-speed tracks with long straights. If you're doing very twisty tracks with lots of tight corners, a little toe-out up front might be appropriate.
Bob
Here's a link to Pfadt's alignment sheet:
http://www.pfadtracing.com/blog/wp-c...-9.12.2011.pdf
When you gave the sheet to your alignment tech, if you didn't highlight the part on the Pfadt sheet at the top about "Negative toe measurements indicate toe-in", then your alignment guy probably used the industry-wide convention of negative (-) meaning toe-out.
If you do actually have toe-out for the rear, you definitely want to get it aligned again - you DO NOT want toe-out for the rear. A little toe-in will help keep the car settled during acceleration out of turns.
BTW, although Pfadt's specs have zero or a very slight toe-in up front, many track hounds like a slight toe-out up front for a crisper turn-in. So....it looks like you have essentially zero toe up front, which is fine for street or track - especially high-speed tracks with long straights. If you're doing very twisty tracks with lots of tight corners, a little toe-out up front might be appropriate.
Bob
Last edited by BEZ06; 03-16-2014 at 04:52 PM. Reason: Added info about front toe
#4
Racer
Thread Starter
I agree, the tech asked me to come back to the shop and we had a conversation regarding the rear toe. He advised me the same thing that negative toe on Pfadts recommendation sheet equates to toe out. I advised him I was positive it has to have toe in in the rear. We went back and forth for a minute and I told him 100% toe in...I just hope that he actually set it up that way as the colors are confusing. Negative is in green for the camber but the red seems to be positive. Very confusing...But if ACRACE is correct then it really means it does have toe in in the rear as commercial racks indicate toe in positive terms...I think the color red is whats messing with me....My first track day is coming up soon so I hope it is correct. I'd hate it if a bad alignment spoiled me weekend
Last edited by REVHARD; 03-17-2014 at 11:13 AM.
#6
Racer
Thread Starter
It does seem odd, I know the tech races an rx-7 so I'm sure he knows the rear would be squirmy with toe out under braking and corner entry. That's why he called me to the back of the shop to confirm what was written on Pfadts spec sheet. He advised me he set it up with toe in and to disregard the colors. I trust him, as he aligned my Audi S4 for the track and it handled great. I guess I'll soon find out at the track I suppose.
#7
Le Mans Master
looks to me like you have very little toe out up front and more toe out in back.
C5Z loves toe out in front about 1/8" total and toe in in rear about 1/8" total. It will wander on street and eat tires on street but be an animal on track.
C5Z loves toe out in front about 1/8" total and toe in in rear about 1/8" total. It will wander on street and eat tires on street but be an animal on track.
#8
Hey guys can you comment on my rear toe situation - this is a C6Z - I also gave my shop the pfadt settings, did they setup my rear toe incorrectly - it shoes -1.4mm for rear .
#9
Tech Contributor
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Virtually all commercial alignment racks use positive (+) for toe-in and negative (-) for toe-out, and that is the normal convention (positive toe is toe-in and negative toe is toe-out). Pfadt's published recommendations use negative values for toe-in. Looking at your sheet that you posted, I would bet that the car has toe-out in the rear.
He may be OK. The sheet is a little hard to read but I don't see any negative signs in front of his rear toe settings. The red color is the machine indicating the setting is out of tolerance. What is interesting is the machine's Specified Range it is all negative toe.
I agree, the tech asked me to come back to the shop and we had a conversation regarding the rear toe. He advised me the same thing that negative toe on Pfadts recommendation sheet equates to toe out. I advised him I was positive it has to have toe in in the rear. We went back and forth for a minute and I told him 100% toe in...I just hope that he actually set it up that way as the colors are confusing. Negative is in green for the camber but the red seems to be positive. Very confusing...But if ACRACE is correct then it really means it does have toe in in the rear as commercial racks indicate toe in positive terms...I think the color red is whats messing with me....My first track day is coming up soon so I hope it is correct. I'd hate it if a bad alignment spoiled me weekend
That is another reason why I always spell out Toe In or Toe Out.
Bill
Last edited by Bill Dearborn; 03-18-2014 at 01:43 AM.
#11
Racer
Thread Starter
This is all pretty interesting. I'm curious how many different types of alignment racks read in degrees or inches and how a "commercial" rack indicates positive or negative values. If ACRACE is correct that commercial racks dictate positive toe in negative values then it really makes people wonder exactly what is going on. The technician even mentioned he hasn't seen anything being measured in inches in quite some time.
#12
Race Director
This is all pretty interesting. I'm curious how many different types of alignment racks read in degrees or inches and how a "commercial" rack indicates positive or negative values. If ACRACE is correct that commercial racks dictate positive toe in negative values then it really makes people wonder exactly what is going on. The technician even mentioned he hasn't seen anything being measured in inches in quite some time.
However....those of us that do our own alignments almost all use measurements in inches or millimeters. Take a look at forum member David Farmer's great DIY alignment info:
http://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1634366/align.pdf
Scroll down to the toe measurement part and you can see that he is measuring the distance between the front of the left and right tires, and then the rear of the tires - the difference is the TOTAL toe. In his example less distance between the front of the tires than the distance between the rear of the tires is toe-in.
Also, here's a link to using Hardbar's toe plates:
http://hardbarusa.com/uploads/image/...%20rev1(1).pdf
Some of us may also use the string method - strings down the side of the car (well...just outside of the side of the car, and parallel to the string on the other side). In that type of measurement you measure the distance on one side of the car from the string to the front of the tire and then from the string to the rear of the tire, and the difference is the toe-in or toe-out for just that side. If the front is 1/8" closer to the string than the rear you have 1/8" toe-out for that side. If the other side is 1/8" toe out as well, then you have 1/4" TOTAL toe-out.
If you have 1/4" total toe, then each side is 1/8". 1/8" is approx 3mm if you're measuring metric.
You can do the trig, but depending on the distance between the points you're measuring (the distance between the points you're using for the front and rear of the tire/wheel, say 20" to 24") 1/8" of toe on one side is around 0.3 to 0.37 degrees.
It's really very easy to do your own alignments, and you can be very accurate.
Bob