w00tw00t

...

RX-Ben

gun the throttle and countersteer. It will get weight to the rear, even in the wet or on snow, which will stop the rear from coming around. Lifting almost always gets you in trouble...most of the time on the track you are using the gas to steer and lifting has as pretty strong, sudden steering effect as it will accelerate whatever the rear is doing.

w00tw00t

Thanks, that's what I thought too - I shouldn't have lifted! I'm such a dumbass (but live and learn)

skxf430

My recommendation is not to drive on a wet track with R888's.

You are a brave man.

RX-Ben

you don't learn it overnight, but once you experience it you'll never be inclined to lift. Once the car starts sliding (in a 10/10ths situation) you can't consciously think. Just look where you want to go and generally your body will figure it out. Like, if at the exit of the turn in that vid, you were looking at the middle of the road 100 yards ahead (and your only goal was to get there), you would countersteer and mash the gas in order to get there (no need to think about weight transfer and all that crap).
In other situations, like if the rear kicks out early in a turn, you may need to adjust your target to just keeping it on the track or just off the track, depending on how out of shape you are. In any case, you need a "target" in mind when things are going well or going south.

5280Racer

We needed more verbal actions during the spin! I would have been cusin like a sailor!

smellya

I drove one time in the rain with r888s. That is something i would never want to do again. He is very brave man...

froggy47

Nice data on your video. Details?

ps what those guys said. Better rain tires you would have made the corner.



What was your nanny setting? A little cursing might have helped.

Bill Dearborn

Going through that turn you should have had maintenance throttle. At about the .05 second mark you should have your feet buried on the clutch and brake as you were too far gone to recover. Locking it down at the .05 second mark would have carried the car down the track instead of where you went. Remember the old adage: "When in a spin both feet in". When the car starts to spin there is a small window where you can catch it. You were past that window.

Lifting or Mashing the throttle will get you in trouble in those situations. If it is too slippery when you enter the turn the car will start to understeer and then you can play with the steering and the throttle to yaw the car to compensate for the understeer.

Mashing the throttle when the grip is reduced can sometimes get you into a power oversteer situation as the rear wheels break loose. The idea when running in the rain is to narrow the track about a half car width on each side. That way your wheels are running on pavement that has less oil and rubber build up on it. The other thing you need to do is add several pounds of tire pressure to reduce the surface area of the tire. That helps squeeze the water from under the tread blocks by increasing the lbs/sq in. on the pavement. You should also look for areas on the track where it isn't glistening. They will have more grip as the track surface is rougher there.

Bill

OCCOMSRAZOR

Pacific is really a crap track. Even when dry, the track is slick. When wet, it is like ice skating. I hated racing on that track. I learned very early that nothing good happens when it's wet, and that crashing is expensive. My advice ( which you will likely ignore...) :

If you want to avoid those types of spins, don't race on a wet track.

StreetSpeed

I had a day and a half in the wet at Limerock last weekend and didn't bother to change from my Contintental slicks to my old R888s. I figured I'd see if the slicks would function in the rain. I'm guessing they were about 10 second a lap faster than I'd be able to go on the R888s. Those Toyos are just awful in the wet.

RDnomorecobra

Also seems you were not fast enough with your hands. More steering input and earlier may have saved it. Easy to say, of course and tough to tell from just a snippet of video.

c4cruiser

A few years ago, I had a C6 Z06 spin in front of me at the Turn 4 (?) course worker station at Pacific. While the front straight and the first 3 turns were dry, the back side was wet. As I recall, the guy over-corrected and his car first spun counter-clockwise, then went back the other way and hit the concrete barriers in front of the corner worker stand. Because part of those barriers held up the floor of stand, the floor dropped and I saw the workers bail as the car moved towards them The car came to rest on the right side of the course. Lots of damage and body pieces all over the surface.

What we found out later was that the driver was experienced but it was his first outing in what was a new car to him.

Pacific is not a fun course for HPDE's if it's wet and people don't have the right tires. I don't think I will be back until some changes are made. And I live just a 30 minute drive from The Ridge....

brkntrxn

From what I see in the video, the spin was caused by too much steering input too quickly for the conditions. Watch your hands and the motion of the car:

- you gave the steering wheel a lot of input to the left pretty quickly
- the "view" from the front of the car reacts slower than the input you gave the steering wheel
- to me, that indicates that the front tires were understeering/scrubbing
- as the momentum of the car slows and the front tires begin gaining traction from the reduced speed, you are in a "polar" moment with too much steering input for the conditions
- as the fronts grab traction and start going in the direction you told it to, the rear end comes around as it is trying to catch up with the direction of the front
- given the slick conditions, the rear end just keeps coming around from lack of lateral grip and when you lifted it caused it to continue going... laterally

Make sense?

My .02. I wasn't in the car.

StKnoWhere

Thanks for posting, these threads are very educational.

w00tw00t

thank you for all the great feedback everyone! I've learnt a lot from what the above posters called out.

C5 Hardtop

Careful of all those trees at PIR It isn't as bad today as it was when the track was SIR.

This vid below is of my first vette when I started lapping. I almost spun and it looks like the rear broke loose at the same point in an apex, but different turn and same track. It is a 1999 Hardtop with street tires ( and 1999 video technology )

w00tw00t

I think you nailed the root cause!


great feedback everyone! Essentially here's what I've summarized so far:


** First off, At Pacific raceways, especially in the wet, even if you sneeze wrong, you'll hit something - there is no run off, any where!

** Got to pay attention all the time! A wet pacific raceways is like ice skating!


** Key root cause - You gave the steering wheel a lot of input to the left pretty quickly, asked for too much from the car in wet and then lifted as soon as spin started!

** Ensure that you look where you want to go! This is key, your inputs will be driven by where you look and want to be! Once the car starts sliding (in a 10/10ths situation) you can't consciously think. Just look where you want to go and generally your body will figure it out. Like, if at the exit of the turn in that vid, you were looking at the middle of the road 100 yards ahead (and your only goal was to get there), you would countersteer and mash the gas in order to get there (no need to think about weight transfer and all that crap).

** Do not hesitate on initial steering input - If backend goes, counter steer immediately and aggressively. Try letting your wheel rotate through your hands as you spin catching at the right moment is key

** Do not lift!! Use Throttle Steer - use maint. throttle - If you lift the throttle when the car oversteers, you are taking load off the rear. Thereby weight transfers to the front, the rear gets lighter and traction in the rear is decreased even more. So the oversteer will result in a spin

** Be aware of your steering wheel to throttle connection at all times

** You should also look for areas on the track where it isn't glistening. They will have more grip as the track surface is rougher there.

** The idea when running in the rain is to narrow the track about a half car width on each side. That way your wheels are running on pavement that has less oil and rubber build up on it.

** The other thing you need to do is add several pounds of tire pressure to reduce the surface area of the tire

RDnomorecobra

notice how much counter steer input you needed in order to save it. Compare to OP video ...

w00tw00t

that was an awesome save and a great "aha" moment for me.