NVR2L8

I have never seen this at any event, at any track or with any group, but I guess there is a first time for everything.

I will not name the instructor or student, but sitting on the grid on the second day of an event, I saw a novice student in a Z06 going out solo at her first event ever!

IMO, there is no way this should be permitted, and this was a danger to the driver and every one else on the track, all green students.

More than the student, I blame the instructor. By allowing a novice student to solo on the second day, it is inferred that he has taught the student everything there is to know in one day.... or maybe just everything he knows. Either way, it is a big mistake.

I am curious to know what others think.

Supercharged111

Some people get it, and some people don't. We'll never know without hearing from the instructor. How did this student appear to do solo? I only had one or 2 sessions with an instructor my first day out before they cut me loose and I didn't kill anyone, nor was I so slow I had to point anyone by. IMO, the answer is "it depends".

Last C5

Was the student sent out "solo" in the novice only group or in a more advanced group?

Mark2009

Are you talking about a driving school or an HPDE?

In the latter case the 'student' (novice) may have other experience at some point in time or with some other group.

SouthernSon

Tom, personally I only require a few items from a driver in order to solo them: know the location of the corner workers, the flags, do they pay attention to traffic, do they follow their own line and not other cars, do they keep the car under control and do they know how to effect safe passing. They can be the slowest car out there but if they know these things, whether on their first day or not, I will consider them a candidate for solo. I never push a driver to try it by themselves but, rather, ask them if they would like to try it. The decision, at that point, resides with them. Many times my drivers have wanted to try it and several times I have been asked to ride with them again. Usually, this is a result of them relying to heavily on my input and discovering the comfort level lacking when by themselves. But, to answer your question, I have had 2 drivers over the last few years that were, indeed, exceptional enough to demonstrate enough acumen that I had no problem in them going solo after the first day.

VetteDrmr

IMO you can't wait until the student knows "everything there is to know" before being soloed. It's best if the student is soloed once they've demonstrated they can run *safely* in their run group. With one group I ran with there were no solo runs in the novice run group, and if they had no experience with you then you were put into the novice group until you had demonstrated your ability to "play nice". Then they would bump you up into the 2nd group, more instructor sessions, until you were soloed.

You could move up in one session, one day, one weekend, or never, depending on your performance.

Have a good one,
Mike

StreetSpeed

I've asked a first timer on his first day if we wanted to solo. He declined, but it does happen. As stated above, some people just get it. Also remember that there are some groups out there with really lousy instructors. They don't always have their students' best interests as heart. And FWIW at my first track day at Watkins Glen in 2006 I moved from beginner to yellow solo on the second day.

jlutherva

Several thoughts... Was this a Chin event? Chin requires all drivers who have not done a particular track before to start in the green run group. Some of these drivers have a lot of track time and could easily be soloed the first day.

Was the driver actually soloed or was this a lead-follow? Was he marked as solo? Lead-follow works very well with some students.

I've had two students that were first timers that I've soloed on the second day. Both had extensive motorcycle racing experience.

Jim

Dan H.

Two weeks ago with PCA at Watkins Glen my instructor told me at the end of the first day that I was ready to solo or move up to the Blue run group. On day two he showed up moving me into the Blue group. I was happier to move up a group and keep my instructor than to go solo.

This was my fourth track day

rbl

Why would you "blame" anyone. It isn't your call, you did not ride with the other party and actually have no clue about the qualification. Actually even as an observer you can't tell much unless you are in the car real time.

Running solo is like going solo in the airplane. It is an important part of the learning process and a "step" in that process. After demonstrating basic safety awareness, basic car control and a reasonable knowledge of the track itself then running solo is appropriate. From that point the instructor turns into a coach and starts working on the details with occasional rides and assistance .... IMO

You'd still be pounding T&G's in that C-150 with an attitude like that because there is always more to learn.

UrbanKnight

It doesn't bother me at all, as many have said, some folks just "get it" or have a natural ability. As long as they are safe, and are aware of the environment on the track, why wouldn't you solo a driver? On the flip side, I see plenty of sloppy solo drivers that could benefit from an instructor....

I was solo'd in 2 different clubs after 1 event/and or 1 day with each, and I was solo'd at chin without ever running an event with them at Sebring(home track), I "think" I have natural talent, and get it...Not everyone does, depends on the comfort level.

SouthernSon

Back in high school, ages ago, I soloed at 5.2 hrs. The difference in the performance of that little C150 and the feeling of being alone with my life in my own hands will always stay with me. That is the reason I always watch very carefully my driver on their first solo session and do a thorough debriefing.

spdislife

When I was a student I was soloed at every event I was at. I would work at being consistent and smooth and my goal was to display the skills necessary for my instructor to have the confidence to give me that band.

Being an instructor now I look for the same qualities in my students that gives me the confidence to solo them. And I instruct in that direction also.

Another factor is the track. Pocono North is an easier circuit to master at an event than Watkins Glen is.

Happy Independence Day

Bill Dearborn

Most novices need several days of instruction. It is more than knowing the line, the rules and passing safely. They also need to learn car control which can be learned by running solo but usually takes much longer to do since the student doesn't have somebody riding along explaining what is happening with the car and how they can correct mistakes. The biggest danger to novices and intermediate students is making a driving mistake and they don't know how to recover from the mistake.

However, there are some people who are naturals. I had one BMW Novice student who was a total newbie. He listened to me as I pointed out the flag stations, the line, brake zones, corner entry points, apexes and track out points. That is a lot to cover in one lap and it usually takes a novice a couple of days to get all of that stuff straight but when we started the second lap he was on point, smoothly handling the car and hitting his marks, it didn't take him long to start passing all of the other cars in the group and actually lapping about half of them. After 2 more sessions with him I talked to the Chief Instructor and we moved him from the D run group to the C run group for the last session of the day. The last couple of sessions I just rode in the car as ballast while enjoying the ride and answering any questions he had. When I filled out his evaluation form at the end of the second day I recommended he be moved to the B group for the next school. He had a different instructor for that school but by the third school he was running with the A group drivers and doing quite well. Three instructors worked with him and all three saw how capable he was. I don't doubt that 3 years later he has far surpassed my capabilities.

Bill

brkntrxn

Yep, I have been instructing and racing for years and Chin has had me start in a Green Group when I attended a new track (more than once). Nothing wrong with that policy either.

I was solo'ed quickly but actually opted to stay in Green so I could concentrate on learning the nuances of the track. The slower pace of the Green group has a LOT of advantages when you are scouting a venue.

FASTFATBOY

I was bumped up and allowed to solo after 3 sessions of the first day.

Now, as an instructor it depends on a lot of things. The most being the students comfort level and the speed of the cars in the next group up.

If the intermediate group is fast and crowded I doubt I would bump a student into that group.

EDIT

My first instructor was a semi-pro driver, Conti tire, Playboy Miata and the like.

Iconic

This year I've done 4 HPDE events, put on by 4 different organizers/clubs and they all have their own little idiocincracies. This was my first time at all 4 of these tracks, btw/

Daytona, 2 day event - Put on by Celebration exotic cars. I signed up in the slow group. When I checked in at the track they told me who my instructor was for day one and said I'd be solo for day 2 (lack of instructors)

PBIR, 1 day event - Put on by PDG. I signed up in the slow group. In the drivers meeting before track time they asked who wanted to volunteer to go solo, (again lack of instructors) I raised my hand and went solo. I rarely got passed and was lapping others.

Sebring, 2 day event - Put on by the NCM. I signed up in the slow group. Obviously this event was 95% Corvettes. The brass running this one were less lieniant to allow instructors to solo off drivers, so I had an instructor for every single session both days. I would have prefered to have been signed off so that I could run solo on day 2, since it is 200 less pounds of dead weight riding around, but whatever. On day two I had four 30 minute sessions and got passed by only 2 cars, a ZO6 and a C7. Two other sessions I did not get passed and one of those I was the first car out.

Road America, 3 day event - Put on by a local Mustang club. This one I signed up in the intermidiate group (no instructor). I learned the lines easily my first time out and passed almost everyone (I know, not fair playing with Mustangs LOL).

I can easily see an instuctor signing off a driver on day one. It doesnt take 5 hours of track time to learn turn in, apex, track out, go pedal. More like under 30 minutes.

To be clear, I think having an instructor with you on a new track is invaluable on the first few sessions, but when you are doing laps over and over and nobody is talking to each other on the chatterbox, it probably means it is time to get pushed from the nest and fly.

NVR2L8

Who do you think would be "blamed" if the novice student were involved in a serious accident, or worse.

Yes, I observed the student on the track, she passed my student's car and then proceeded to miss the next three corners. I think it is the responsibility of instructors to monitor everything taking place on the track, for the safety of all.

In response to some of the comments above:
1. The student went solo in the novice group.
2. The event was an HPDE, and the student had no prior experience.
3. This was not a Chin event, and it was not a “lead/follow”.
4. The driver had four twenty minute sessions before going solo.

Admittedly, safety is my top priority, by far. Even if a novice student is a "natural", the instructor could be the difference between a poor judgment by a student and a serious incident. I may be able to avert a serious incident from the passenger seat, but not from the paddock.

In my years of instructing, I have found that two of the higher risks are when a student is soloed, and when they are moved up in class.
The student is more challenged on their own, when they loose the "training wheels" of the instructor.

My method of instruction is:
1. I learn everything I can about the car (which I inspect), the mods, the driver, past experience, and what their goals are.
2. I make sure the student learns all the flags, corner worker, passing zones and protocols, etc. I often attend class with them.
3. The first couple of sessions, I tell them every single brake point, turn in point, track out, etc. I make corrections as necessary.
4. I gradually reduce my commands as the student demonstrates their ability.
5. I then ask the student to do the talking, though every corner in the laps.
6. I then ask the student to only speak when they make a mistake. If they do not tell me about a mistake, I will correct them.

I have never run out of things to instruct or coach a student, even in the intermediate group. Once they are putting down good laps, I may start working on trail braking, rev matching, driving off line, etc., things that will help them when they are promoted to the next level.

Students who register for events pay for instruction, and I feel that we are obligated to provide as much as they are prepared to learn. I also believe that the free track time given to instructors is an obligation to do the best we can.

My main point, however, goes back to safety. The novice driver is safer with an instructor, as is everyone else on the track. Not for the 95% of the time that the session is going smoothly, but for that rare instance when something goes wrong. Mechanical, fluids on track, missed shifts (spins), other driver error, animals, wet track, and the list goes on and on.

Safety is number one for me, and the first line of safety is the instructor.

SouthernSon

That would be 'speed sensing' among a few other factors of car control. In addition to what I listed above, when I see a driver exhibit this along with how to capture an errant direction on the track, as well as 'looking through' the immediate vehicles in front, I figure he has enough car control to venture out by himself if comfortable. I suppose we can all list enough factors here and there about what makes a safe driver but I think the high points have been listed well enough. There will always be something that happens on track from time to time that would give an instructor pause to reconsider a particular driver's ability.

rustyguns

I have done same with a few students and some don't pass and I recommend to come back next time