Razodo

Hi Everyone,

I've been tracking for several years now and last October I bought a 2002 C5 Z06 as a track car. The car is pretty much stock but it does have a Ron Davis Radiator with oil cooler, T1 sway bars and E2 tunnel plate. So far the car has been excellent but my only issue has been the brakes. I went through my first set of Hawks by the second track days at Sebring and one new rotor cracked. I am using cheap NAPA rotors. After that, I replaced all four calipers with OEM rebuilt, and tried PFC-11s (new compound that replaced PFC-01). That didn't make much difference since after the third track day, pads where gone. Even with cheap rotors it's getting expensive to be replacing pads and rotors every 2-3 track days. Even if when I start a track day with fresh pads, fresh fluid and rotors, it is not long when I start getting a long pedal. By the way, I do have SS lines, I use racing fluid Motul 600, flush regularly, and cooling ducts.

I need your help in selecting a good brake kit for my situation. I've done lot of research on the forum about this subject but it seems that most threads are old and do not take into consideration some of the new brake kits for the C5. I will specially like to hear from guys that track actively and even better from racers. I am only doing HPDEs and not racing so I don't need a brake system to win anything. I do like to keep my car T1 compliant in case I decide to race some time in the near future, so it is important to me to hear from T1 guys. My priority is that it has a good balance between cost of consumables and braking performance. I am looking to spend around $2,000.

For the amount I'm willing to spend I am only thinking about replacing front calipers, and hopefully something that I can complete in the future with rear calipers, in case needed. Interested to know your thoughts on that as well.

So far, I'm really liking the AP Racing "Sprint" package (fronts Only)/ ESSEX Designed AP Racing T1 Kit (I'm assuming they are the same thing, please correct me if I am wrong). The forum and Essex has tons of info on this, so please if you are using them, please comment whether all that is promised is true. Specially how long pads and rotors last. If you used wilwoods before please comment how they compare to each other.

My second alternative is Wilwoods. My friend running a T1 C5 has the Wilwood SL6, he is happy with the performance but he is also going pretty quick through pads and rotors. I Like the idea of the LG Motorsports G-stop kit which uses a wider caliper and I am able to use oem rotors, but not sure if they comply with T1 regulation. Wilwood now has W6A and W4A, not sure if it's worth doing those instead of the SL6 or the LG G-Stops.

Stoptechs. I had not really considered stoptechs so I know less about them, but a vendor suggested it was the way to go. If you've used them, please let me know what has been your experience and what model you are using.

Thanks,
Tulio R.

Ramo7769

Subscribed. I also have to add that I seem to get a soft pedal quickly with Motul RBF-600.

jimtway

I've installed and driven on the Essex sprint kit and can tell you that it's excellent. A customer of mine is on his 8th track day (4x20 min sessions) for rotors and they look like they can go another 8. His pads lasted about 6 full track days. I know that Oli is running the same kit and has had equal success.

If your goal is to stay T-1 legal, you just need to stay under 355mm on the rotor size. Anything larger and you'll get hit with a weight penalty.

63Corvette

I am using the Stoptech BBK (ST60 and ST40) kit with the 355 mm rotor.

They are not cheap, but they work very well indeed, and I recommend them if they meet the regulations of your race group.

JRitt@essex

Our Sprint Kit definitely sounds like it's a good fit for your needs. One of our top priorities with this kit is low long-term running costs. As far as bang-for-the-buck for roughly $2500, I don't think anything out there can touch our kit. Any initial savings you'd get by buying a less expensive kit would be lost in the durability of the pads and discs...you'd run through more consumables in less time. Not only that, but frequently changing spares is a hassle!

We've had our kit run in all types of environments...from autoX to wheel-to-wheel racing. They've won many events, and there are a lot of satisfied owners out there running them.

Take a read of our owner reviews on our blog. They say it better than I could.

Bill Dearborn

The long pedal with the stock calipers is due to pad taper. You can reduce the rate of tapering by first applying the brake pedal softly until the pads engage the rotors and then pressing hard. The next thing to do is to swap the pads from one side of the car to the other every track day or every other track day. This counteracts the taper from one time to the next.

If you go with the LG G Stop kit you can get up to 10 track days on a set of Wilwood pads. The pads will still taper to some degree but they don't seem to cause the long pedal caused by the stock floating calipers. You can minimize the taper to increase pad life by flipping the pads from one side of the car to the other. One thing that should be done with WW calipers is to use pad spacers as the pads wear. This keeps the pistons back in the bores so they don't get as dirty. As the pad gets down to its minimum thickness you can insert some Phenolic or Titanium spacers that reduce heat transfer into the caliper. The phenolic spacers are available from Behr Racing in Wisconsin. If you use the stock type rotors you will still crack them every two to three days front and rear. Some two piece rotors may extend the time between cracking but the added cost of the rotors is difficult to justify for the little added time between cracking. The added cost means you need to get at least 20 hard track days out of a set of rings Vs 3 days out of a set of NAPA cheapos.

W6A and W4A calipers are nice. I have them on my C6Z. However, though the pads have a larger volume than the 7420 pads used in the G Stop kit they don't last as long as those thick pads. On my C6Z I purchased the kit that allows the use of the stock C6Z rotor with the W6A caliper. Wilwood also makes a two piece rotor that is the same size. So far I believe the best rotor available for that setup is the stock C6Z rotor which lasts about 5 track days before cracking. My AFX/Colemans only went 7 days and my WW G37 rotors have ~ 10 days on them but only half of those 10 days were at the Glen which really abuses brakes the other half were split between Sebring and VIR which don't have the down hill high speed braking seen at the Glen.

One thing I did notice with the either the two piece AFX/Coleman or WW G37 rotors is there is no rear rotor cracking. I actually wore out the Colemans (slots were worn away) and got over 20 track days on them and the WWs seem to be doing the same.

Bill

ErnieN85

Yep Then I got another 4 days out of them before i changed them out, never did crack.

Razodo

Thanks. Do you happen to know how much he was getting on his stock setup before he go the AP Sprint Kit?

Good to know that the key to sating T1 legal is the 355MM rotor. Thanks!

Razodo

My pad taper in the front is ridiculous. Last time I tried switching the pads but it was too late. When I switched them, one side of the pad was almost gone. I got another session out of them but at the end it was down to the plate.

If the LG G Stop still causes pad taper I think I rather avoid it. The most interesting part of this system is that you can run OEM rotors. I wonder if there are people out there using their OEM rotors t the track with the AP Racing Sprint or the LG G Stop kit, what's the braking performance like and do they last the same as the OEM calipers.

Razodo

Are you aware of any of your customers running your AP Racing Sprint kit with OEM rotors and what has been their experience?

argonaut

Yes, absolutely. The AP sprint kit was designed for that and work very well. And...they fit under stock C5 Z06 17" front rims*. Rotor life depends on a lot of factors, making it very hard to compare from one driver to another. I got 38 sessions out of a set of the AP J-hooks (8-9 days).

To me the best things about the AP sprint kit are:
- Big thick pads that are not only cheaper but due to their size last quite a bit longer
- Vastly reduced caliper flex with virtually no taper. No need to rotate pads during a weekend
- Ability to use OEM rotors - crack a high dollar J-hook at the track? No biggie just put a cheap napa rotor in there.
- Simple pad swaps
- The security of knowing that the brakes just work everytime. No need to fuss between sessions bleeding and what not. No need to double pump out on track. Etc.

*Note that a very few people have had to use small spacers to get them to fit under 17" rims. Not clear why the clearance is less for these guys. Personally mine fit fine under 17" rims.

JeremyGSU

Here is my experience with the Hardbar AP T1 kit (I have the older one). I only do DE's at the Advanced level. Sebring is my home track.

I too was experiencing major long pedal at Sebring. I also added SKF hubs, run Castrol SRF, along with cooling. The only reason I wanted the AP kit was because I wanted to retain the 17" wheels. If that is not a concern then I would consider other kits as well. Here are my experiences.

- The pads still taper even with SKF hubs - running XP20's in the front (I have since added C6 knuckles but haven't tried them out yet)
- the pads wear quick. Sebring is my home track and I can go through a set in 3 days. (As a novice you might get 5-6 but not 10)
- I believe part of the reason the pads wear quick at Sebring is because of the heat. Much smaller rotor/caliper on a 12.8" vs a 14" Stoptech
- I cannot get any rotor to fit other than AP - I've tried OE, Napa, and DBA4000
-pads cost just as much as before. $260 for XP20's. Hawks are about $100 cheaper though
- My J-hooks are lasting around 4-5 days. Again, this is Sebring but to be fair I also don't switch my rotors when going on the street. Just the pads back to Carbotech 1520's.

I don't want to make it sound like I don't like the kit. I do. It works leaps and bounds better than the stock setup and the car stops pretty well. But I haven't found the consumables to last that much longer than before and the rotors are lot more expensive. I do have a nice firm pedal every time and it works. However, for the money you spend I'm just not convinced that it's better than a 14" Stoptech. My buddy gets a hell of a lot longer pad life on his M3 with ST40's than I do on my C5 Z with nearly equal power and he runs faster lap times.

If I had to do it all over again I'd get ST60's and ST40's but that's way out of your $2000 budget.

JRitt@essex

I'm sorry the consumables aren't lasting as long for you Jeremy. First important question, are you running brake ducts?

All of that said, the root of the issue may just be that you are indeed exceeding the capacity of our Sprint Kit. That's why we made our six piston Endurance Kit. Sometimes the bigger setup is required due to speeds reached, tracks run, tires used, and how the driver uses the brakes.

Your wear rates are far higher than most of my customers, and are definitely not typical (check the reviews on the blog). I just had the chief instructor at CMP in here to test fit our new rear CP8350 rear kit. He is very fast, CMP is fairly tough on brakes, and he is constantly lapping his car. He got over a full year out of his 325x32's before they finally cracked too much to use...and again, he is hammering them most weekends.

At any rate, let me know on your duct setup. That would be critical in your situation. Also, if you decide you want to upgrade to our six piston setup shoot me an email or call me. I'll work with you to find the right setup. Again, we have a bunch of options for this very reason.

At the end of the day though, with a 17" wheel on the front, you can't cram a 14" disc in there. Eighteens open up options. Also a $2k budget is a limiting factor. I just haven't seen any other kit in that price range that will do what ours does. Thanks for the feedback.

redtopz

Razodo, the old T1 is now T2. T1 is similar to the old STO with much more purpose built race cars (I had to hire a full time attorney to keep up with all the scca rule changes ). To meet T2 rules you can run up to a 340 front rotor and 320 rear (2 piece rotors ok) with any 4 piston calipers (if I read the rules correctly). T2 also allows the wilwood SL6 calipers (LG G-stop). T1 brakes can run 6 piston calipers with up to 355 rotor size and 33 mm thickness. Larger rotors up to 380 mm can be used with a 100 lb weight penalty.

Regarding pad taper, Oli and I have recently installed the ZR1 spindles after hearing that GM discovered flexing in the cast spindles/knuckles under hard braking on sticky tires. We were getting pad taper even with AP, stoptech, or wilwood calipers. After completing a couple races now with the ZR1 spindles, it seems that pad taper is significantly reduced. If you are wearing out one pad more than the other with sliding stock calipers then you might want to grease the pins.

Regarding rotor size, you can use 13" rotors effectively, but my experience is that 14" rotors last longer and are easier on pads. Other than that, I have used wilwood, stoptech, and AP calipers and they will all work well. AP is lighter and you can get them with 14" front rotors. Stoptech may have higher costs for pads/rotor rings, but try to research replacement costs of pads/rotors before making a decision.

JRitt@essex

You beat me to it...I was just about to comment that Oli had switched to our Endurance six piston/355mm setup.

Priceless.

JeremyGSU

Yes, I'm running the Doug Rippie brake duct kit to LG spindles.

I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm think I am exceeding what this kit can do. Again, this is Sebring. I've been to VIR and Road Atlanta numerous times and find that my consumables last so much longer there, but Sebring is just one long straight after another where you brake down constantly. It's just hard on brakes, period. Comparing one track to another really isn't fair to your product and that's why I was stressing I was at Sebring so people could understand why my consumables aren't lasting as long. I've also got over 60+ track days there so I know it fairly well and brake hard.

And to your point, I do brake hard. I pretty much brake at maximum capacity of my stock rear brakes and the AP kit on every corner. I've chased plenty of C5 Z's that had Wilwood or Stoptech front and rear kits and I caught them in the braking, when I should't have running the stock rears. They were just not braking as hard as they could have been.

In reality, I probably need a 6-piston setup in the front and 4-piston in the rear and I would probably be happy. I just don't have the funds for it now. So to your point and fairness the next time I review this I will keep in mind that I am probably exceeding what this thing can do.

Having said that, again this kit works WELL beyond what the stock brakes could do. I tried everything you could to get the stock brakes to work first and really just wasted my money. What I like most is the brakes are consistent the whole day now that I found the right components to go with it. The pads are super easy to change too, and it fits under my 17" street setup.

Razodo

Many thanks for your info. Huge dilemma for me. I feel that the AP Racing kit will do just fine for me right now, but I fear that in a year or so I'll be in the exact same situation as JeremyGSU. I'm in Miami, mostly track at homestead and I do 6 to 8 track days at Sebring. Sebring destroys brakes. Gone through rotors in one day, pads in 2, melted piston to the pad once, and I'm not nearly as fast as some of the other guys out there. Homestead is not nearly as bad on brakes as Sebring.

It would be ideal for me to get a front kit that I then can complement with a rear kit, if needed. From the research that I've done the guys that are getting great rotor and pad life on their stoptech, they have them in all four corners. Yet to hear from somebody that has st40 in the front only, and st60 only in the front I hear can change your brake bias. Besides, the difference in cost of pads between ST60 and Essex AP Sprints is big, doesn't make much economic sense.

Razodo

Redtopz, good info, thanks. Do you know if a rear brake kit is allowed or you need to keep rear calipers stock?

Razodo

JRitt, what brake ducts do your recommend to use with your brake kit?

Razodo

JeremyGSU, why aren't you considering adding the AP rear kit rather than going to a whole different setup? Shouldn't that help with rate of use of rotors and pads? It would be interesting to hear from somebody that's running the sprint kit in all four corners. It is very appealing to share same rotors and pads in all four corners.