Kristobias

Time to replace the pads on my Carbon edition. Is anyone running aftermarket pads for the track or does OE rule the day? I understand why I wouldn't want to run a very hard pad with the CCB's but I thought I would check if there is any experience/choices in the aftermarket.

smellya

Ron/Werks on here has run some. I believe endless if I remember correctly. He should see this and pipe in sometime soon.

Werks

Yes as smellya mentioned I've been testing different pads for use with the CCM rotors. So far in addition to OEM I've ran 4 other pad compounds. 2x that were being developed for CCM use by a company and 2x pad compounds from Endless that are already on the market. From a performance/price standpoint so far the OEM pads seem to offer the most bang for the buck. I ran the Endless ME20's which I believe street for around $1100 a set and those provided imho less initial bit and overall braking capability than OEM. About 2-3 weeks ago I started testing the Endless W007 brake pads for the guys at speed-freaks.net and those offer way, way more initial bite than OEM and great modulation making them a great choice for track use especially if running slicks with their improved grip. To date they are bar none the best pads that I have ever tried with CCM but there is one issue and that is cost, the pads retail for $1800 a set. I only have a few days on them so far so I'm still working on figuring out pad life but so far they seem to be wearing a lot less than OEM. So it might turn out to be one of those scenarios where you pay more for a better pad and it also last substantially longer which helps justify the additional cost. Traditionally I get 5 days of track use out of OEM front pads and 7 days out of OEM rears. I have 2 days on the Endless W007's and will be doing 2 more days this weekend, so I should have a better understanding of life expectancy after this weekend as if I was running OEM the fronts would almost be done by then.

Kristobias

Great info, thanks. I found the OE pads on Amazon.com for a great price so I grabbed them for now. I'm guessing Brembo may make them soft to protect the rotors, I used to have a 911 with CCB's and the OE Porsche pads were soft. Mind you the 911 CCB's were $5k per corner!

I look forward to more info on your testing as it progresses

parsonsj

I'm keenly interested in this subject -- I'm running Wilwood's Carbon Ceramic rotors, and their proprietary pads. It would be nice to know of any other pad options.

Werks

I did not know that Wilwood had CCM's available. Can you give me some info on their pad compound (number, name etc.) that they use? Also what are your thoughts as far as performance of it?

parsonsj

Here is the link to the Wilwood kits:

http://www.wilwood.com/BrakeKits/Bra...tion=C-6+-+Z06

They have a rear kit as well (which I am also using). I didn't like the original pads that came with the kit (I couldn't get any initial bite), so Wilwood sent me some secret pads that I had to modify slightly to fit.

Those felt as good as my Brembo GT 385 mm kit I was running (with Hawk DTC 70 pads) when I ran them at Daytona in May. I did get the brakes hot enough to melt the adhesive in my wheel weights, and we had a couple of hot pits too. I was impressed after I beat the hell out of them there with barely any brake dust, and no visible or measurable wear on the rotor.

On disassembly, the pads showed some glazing, which is why I'm interested in other pad options.





Wilwood pad after 2 hours at Daytona

Adam@Amp'dAutosport.com

You can use a few of the Carbotech compounds XP8 XP10 and XP12 if interested I will be happy to give you pricing.

Carbotech™ XP8™

A high torque brake compound with a wide operating temperature range of 200°F-1250°F+ (93°C to 676°C+). Carbotech™ XP8™ is the first of our racing compounds. Good initial bite at race temperatures, high coefficient of friction, excellent modulation and release characteristics. Extremely high fade resistance and very rotor friendly. Perfect for track day use with any tire and can still be driven safely to and from the track. Carbotech™ does NOT recommended XP8™ as a daily driven street pad due to elevated levels of dust and noise. Carbotech™ XP8™ is a great compound on the front & rear of most open wheel and sports racers.


Carbotech™ XP10™

When Carbotech™ unleashed the XP10™ to the general public it immediately gathered multiple regional, divisional, and national championships. The XP10™ has a very strong initial bite with a coefficient of friction and rotor friendliness unmatched in the industry. Fade resistance is in excess of 1475°F (801°C). XP10™ still maintains the highly praised release, excellent modulation and rotor friendliness that have made all Carbotech™ compounds so successful. Carbotech™ XP10™ is not recommended as a daily-driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.


Carbotech™ XP12™

Another highly successful XP™ series compound with an excellent initial bite, torque and fade resistance over and above the XP10™ compound. XP12™ has temperature range of 250°F to 1850°F+ (121°C to 1010°C+). The XP12™ has that excellent Carbotech™ release and modulation that has made all other Carbotech™ compounds so successful. The XP12™ is more rotor aggressive than XP10™, but compared to the competition the XP12™ is still very rotor friendly. XP12™ is NOT recommended for use as a daily driven street pad due to possible elevated levels of dust and noise.

hklvette

Adam, have you or Carbotech tested those with Carbon Composite rotors or know anyone who has? I know that Carbotech says they will fit, but I don't see any mention of rotor compatibility.

Adam@Amp'dAutosport.com

I have a few customers running Carbotech pads on the ZR1. We do know they work but, we do not suggest going higher than the XP12. We have not herd of any issues with compatibility. As far as wear to the rotor I have not herd of any issue. I will say that we did have wear issue with the XP20 and XP24 on the rotor. We have also use the same pads with the Ferrari CCB's and Porsche with out issue.

phipp85

After a lot of research, last year I decided to try the Endless W007(same as WERKS). I got very little time on them due to a rained out weekend and right after that I decided to do some engine work and the car ended up in 50 pieces for 6 months I finally got back on the track 2 weeks ago but used the stock pad because I was familiar with it. I will have some useful feedback on the W007 compound next month. The Endless pads are very expensive as I paid $1075 for fronts. I'm really hoping they last longer. A pad that costs twice as much but last twice as long is fine with me, especially if I get better performance too. A good friend of mine drives my car sometimes and can attest to the much greater initial bite provided by the W007's vs the stock pad.

I plan to try some carbotech pads eventually just not sure which ones.

Glad you tired the W007's so I'm not the only test mule lol

When you first put the pads on did you get any fade when burnishing them in or the first session on track with them? I didn't, but then again I didn't beat on them for 30 minutes either. Instructions didn't say they were pre-bed but they certainly seemed to be.

parsonsj

Uh oh. I've got some Carbotech pads here but I've been waiting for more data before trying them. I was nervous that they would cause rotor wear... they are XP20s and XP10s.

I also found these difficult to bed-in... I never could get any brake fade.

Adam@Amp'dAutosport.com

Who did you buy them from? I will only sell pre bed pads for CCB rotors.

The XP20 will work but you will eventually eat the rotor faster.

Is your rotor CCB?

Werks

I taped off my cooling ducts and went out and did the standard 50x stops with an additional 10x from 80mph to 10mph. During that process they started outgassing and got stinky like the OEM pads but I did not get a lot of fade (like with the OEM pads). Once done there was a noticeable transfer layer applied to the rotors (something that I've never seen with the OEM pads before). After that I just went to the track the next day and beat on them and as mentioned they have noticeably more front bite than OEM. Wear also seems to be minimal (have 2x track days on them so far and will be doing 2x more this weekend). Checking rotor temps with temp paint the fronts are running at the same temperature as OEM pads and rears are running cooler than OEM pads. I'm going to try putting some OEM pads on the rear this weekend to see if I get any improved braking performance out of the rear and will let you know. Anyone looking for the Endless W007's contact the guys at www.speed-freaks.net, these are special order pads but they have a great relationship with Endless and usualy have them in stock!

Also just got another set of prototype pads yesterday that I'll try out this weekend too. So it's going to be testing, testing, testing lol!

Also on a slightly different topic but also brake related in July I switched over to Castrol CRF brake fluid and for those that have never tried it I have to say that I'm impressed and it's easily worth the additional cost! I used to run AP600 fluid which I have boiled before testing some pads that transferred too much heat to the calipers. But more importantly I used to bleed my brakes before every track day, so I'd putt a bottle through just to flush a bit of the old fluid out otherwise my pedal would be spongy. I switched to CRF end of July and have been to the track once a week since then (so 5x track days so far and have not even bled my brakes once lol. Pedal is still rock hard and as firm as it was on day 1. So another example of you pay a little more up front but it saves you in the long run, in this case just in re-bleeds it save me 5x bottles of AP600 at roughly $15 a bottle, which is more than the CRF fluid even cost me in the first place! I'm not trying to suggest that you never bleed your brakes but running CRF it has certainly cut down on how often I feel I need to do it and I drive my car at a pretty decent pace!

parsonsj

I got them direct from Carbotech. Yes, my rotors are carbon ceramic (from Wilwood's) description:

WCCD Carbon-Ceramic Rotor Front Brake Kits offer an extreme performance upgrade featuring WCCB Carbon-Ceramic Dynamic Mount Rotors with Wilwood’s exclusive Bobbin Mounting System.

phipp85

I agree on the Castrol SRF(I assume you meant SRF, not CRF). I have used it since day one and have never had any fade/fluid temp related problems.

I have temperature paint on the rotors(800F,1040F,1130F) and temp strips on the calipers(300-500F). I can't get the lowest temperature color to change on the rear rotors or the strips. The front is weird, the driver side always gets to a higher temperature before the passenger side does. I can't come up with a good reason as to why that happens. Front rotors reach the middle temperature with the driver side tickling the highest temp. With the caliper strips only the driver side reached the 300 degree mark. I plan to add some more caliper strips on the fronts. The current ones are on the outboard face of the caliper, I should have put one on the inboard face and right where the piston comes out of the caliper.

skxf430

Werks,

Those are crazy prices you are paying for pads!!! When are you going to step up to some Surface Transform rotors? I will stick with my poor mans Stoptech Trophys. I have used the Endless ME20's and can get about 15 days out of the fronts and 20+ days out of the rears. I am currently running a set of Endless N05S pads but I don't think I will get more than 5 to 6 days from those pads. I am going to switch back to the ME's because of their longevitiy when the N05S' wear out.

Also, if you like SRF, you should give Endless fluid a try. It is less hygroscopic than SRF and requires less flushing of the entire system like SRF. A number of race teams like Corvette Racing and GMG have used Endless fluid too. I usually get an entire season out of Endless with an occassional bleed off but don't have to do the entire system. It isn't cheap at $40 per bottle but it doesn't boil, and gives a really firm brake pedal.

Peter

Werks

Correct SRF is what I meant to say lol. Was in a rush trying to post quickly before heading off to the track! I run temp paint on my rotors also and my temps seem to run in the mid 600's F. After a few hot laps we also checked temp with and IR temp gun and my rotors were 550f. I run spindle ducts with some pretty large brake cooling ducts in my front splitter (LG GT2 splitter) so that might be the reason my temps are so low. If you are seeing temps in the 1040 to 1130F range then you are running really hot and you might want to look into additional cooling as the CCB rotors oxidize at temps over 700f, so the higher temps are accelerating wear on your rotors.

Hey Peter, it's our pad shape with them being so big and only used by 2 cars (ZR1 & Ferrari 430 Challenge) which ends up making them cost so much unfortunately. I know people love ME20's on iron rotors but when I tried them with my CCB's I ran 2-3 sessions and changed back to OEM. There was simply no initial bite or stopping power in general. I had to stat braking an extra 50-100 feet back on the straights lol. It was pretty scary! The W007's are night and day different! In regards to the Endless fluid I was going to try that at first but I was out of brake fluid everyone that I called was out of stock on Endless. Also the Endless fluid came in 0.5l bottles for $42ea and I found SRF on sale for $60 per 1L bottle. Coming from $15 per 1/2L brake fluid I thought that was expensive enough lol but with the extended use I now see the value. I'll probably give the Endless fluid a shot once I run through the 4-5 bottles of SRF that I have (which at this rate is probably going to take me 2 years lol).





I have been hearing for 2+ years that the Carbotech pads work with CCM's and that people are running them etc. etc. but have never seen any posts by people that have used them. So would anyone that has actually ran Carbotech pads with CCM's please post up your thoughts/results with compound information so that we can get some solid information on how they work? Otherwise I'm going to have to see if I can track down a set and do a review on them. I'm starting to feel like brake pad testing is my second job lol, this weekend I will be testing my 6th brake pad compound with CCM's with only OEM and Endless W007's working good so far unfortunately

phipp85

I'm looking into some additional cooling, but thanks for the heads up. I meant to put in my first post that I had cooling ducts but they pull from the stock location, not the front. Are you sure you don't mean 700 degrees Celsius on the temps CC rotors oxidize? 700F seems a tad low to me.

Robert R1

That's some high price on the W007's.

Thanks for doing the Beta for us Ron

I'll certainly be subscribing and doing the math on cost <> wear vs OEM's. I'm done with another set. I've also noticed the OEM's practically disappear once they wear past a certain point.