Joshboody

Hoping for a little feedback / advice on my experiences so far.

Basically stock c5 z51 on Falken 452s and stoptech pads.

I’ve had 2 track days so far… really enjoy it, but I’d like to be a little faster. I think my lines and technique is pretty good (according to the instructors) and I will learn/progress. But I'm slow and in my head I'm blaming tires primarily. I’m fine with this equipment so far… brakes and tires seem to be consistent with no degradation during 20min session. So if I wasn't getting passed by cars, I think shouldn't pass me (or at least have a harder time passing), I’d be ok.

2 different 1.2mi tracks with straights of about 1/3mi… top speed 105ish.
Track times of 1:13ish (Firebird east) and 1:15ish (Firebird west)
Some comparisons
-C6 500whp on slicks… 9sec faster
-Instructors BMW M3 E46 on Rcompounds (slight engine/suspension mods)… about 5sec faster
-BMW M235 50hp bump, Rcompounds and XP pads… 4sec faster
-Camaro ZL1 on stock tires passes me pretty easily
-c5z modded and Rcompounds passed me like I wasn’t moving
-newer Mustang 5.0 passes me… this one killed me but don’t know if he’s modded. Tires had tread.
-C6Z had a hard time getting by me until I let him… stock runflats though
-Honda S2000 flew by me… I’m assuming its modded, but no turbo and saw tread.

I understand there’s much potential to improve the driver skill, but in the novice group I’m thinking my skill should be somewhat competitive. So in my head it’s the car’s setup, not my skill… of course I could be delusional. I was planning to stick with this setup until I experienced a need to upgrade, but rethinking this now to be a little more comparable to others around the track.

FuriousDonuts

I've been there. The only thing I have to say, you might not want to hear... but I will say it anyway:

Don't worry about what other people are doing and focus on yourself.

Because you're new, you don't have any markers to gauge your performance. So, you're looking at other sources... you can see it all over your post. You're concerned about what the other cars are doing; what your instructors say about you; and now, what we think.

As you continue to drive, you will gain the experience to make your own success markers. Once you're past the point of needing an instructor for safety, these are the only markers that matter.

So what if an S2000 flew by you? Like you said, it could have been modded. It could have been Mario Andretti driving. It could have been any number of factors. Problem is, there is no way of knowing all of those factors.

Focusing on others can put you in a dangerous situation. You think, "I have a faster car than this guy, so I should be faster than him." So you push the car harder until you make a costly mistake that you otherwise would have caught if not for the "red mist". Or you see a "slower" car in your mirrors and overdrive your car to the same result. This is how people wreck and get hurt.

Worst of all, focusing on others limits your ability to progress. I see it all the time in HPDE 4. Guys go out there and put a beating down on everyone else in their run group, and feel really, really good about themselves. Except they should be faster but don't know it b/c they think they're already king of the hill. If you're only focused on others, you will only ever be as fast as them.

My TT3/ST3 C5 with "only" 330 hp has passed 700+ rwhp GTRs, ZR1's, and even an Audi R8 LMS Ultra driven by less-experienced drivers. When I started, I got passed by a mostly-stock Ford Focus (true story). Any driver worth his salt will respect another driver for being out there, being safe, and learning to get better the right way. And if they don't, they're not the guys you want to be listening to anyway.

Sorry for the soapbox, but this is the speech I wish I heard when I started.

Joshboody

Thanks for the feedback, I gotcha… I know this in my head, but the curiosity is strong. Much easier to measure your skill in all other sports. Few questions:

If I do upgrade tires (like NT05s), likely I should simultaneously upgrade pads too?

Too early to turn off TC? I’m a little unsure whether its saving or hurting me at this point. Maybe try AH only next time. I take it the answer is wait until "I know" its holding me back. But without some non-TC experience it maybe difficult to tell.

Would you store a second set of track tires in outside shed in 120+ degrees… prob sitting for the whole summer.

SouthernSon

Been awhile since I have been on that track but IIRC it is very flat yet one can carry a lot more speed than you might first believe. The chicane (2 @ 3) requires good line discipline to keep the speed and 4 is fairly fast as you rotate the car, 5 allows you to carry more speed than first believed so don't be slow on the throttle leaving 4. Being a flat track requires one to know the lateral limits of the vehicle. Since it is only your second event, you really need to get more experience before you look at changing the vehicle equipment. Just get a decent track alignment and listen to your instructors. My bet is you were passed more often leaving 4.

63Corvette

I concur

FuriousDonuts

No worries! Welcome to the addiction . People like us that actually track their cars are probably more competitive then most and naturally want to know these things. I've just fallen into the comparison trap and wanted to share some words of warning.

Depends on your goals with the car and your current pads. Race pads have better thermal capacity and are less prone to fading, but they need heat to work properly. Consequently, they suck on the street and are harder on rotors. If you aren't experiencing any pad fade or braking issues you might be fine with existing pads. But, I always prefer to have more stopping power than tire.

Two schools of thought w/ traction control. 1) turn it off now so you don't learn bad habits with it on, or 2) wait until you can feel it holding you back. I'm a fan of the latter only because as an instructor I've felt it kick in and save students who were otherwise totally oblivious that it was working. I had the same concern about not having non-TC experience, but the lightbulb clicked when I was coming out of a corner and knew the car could take more power w/o spinning, but I could feel it actually holding back. YMMV.

If you haven't already, maybe try competition mode?

I keep mine in the garage where it fluctuates between 45 - 105 degrees and haven't had a problem. I think the biggest thing is to keep them out of direct sunlight and off concrete. Probably less of a concern with street tires than DOTs & Slicks.

bags142

I am too a novice.. I only have ~24 track days over the past 5 years. So take this from a guy who knows exactly where you are coming from

I have been passed by NEAR stock Miata's, S2000's, e36 m3's, etc.

Forget who/what/why is passing you and focus on the next turn. Get it perfect. Then, try it again 2 mph faster. Rinse and repeat. Drive to your limit and comfort level!!!!!!

If you can have fun, get a little better each track day, and not break your car, YOU WIN! And go talk to the other driver's in your group. You will find that they see things you are doing and may talk to you about it, good and bad! And you might make a new friend who shares your passion for our hobby.

Sooner rather than later you will start keeping up and passing other cars and drivers.

And just to prove my point this is from 2011... I am keeping up with, and being held back by a GT3RS. He just got the car recently and had been out of track days for about 10 years. So, my stock vette(and my instructor helped!) on 275/17 nt05's could hang with him until traffic got me. And when I talked to Hank about it, we had a good chuckle about him slowing me down. Don't forget, this is suppose to be fun at the end of the day, cause we are NOT getting paid for it!!

PaConehead

It will all come to together. As you learn the capabilities of your car, hone skills, and build confidence you'll begin to adjust your braking zones, you'll see that you are carring more speed into the turns, and hence, out of turns. You find other cars aren't closing as much going into turns and passing you less often coming out. Then you'll want more power, sticker tires, stiffer suspension, better seats, harnesses and on and on and on . . . (Welcome to the addiction - have fun!)

strano@stranoparts.com

We like to go fast, that's why we do this sort of thing. I give you props for admitting it.

First and foremost remember the car is fast, it's got a lot of energy and you probably don't have any safety equipment in it. So keep your head.

That said, you are on some pretty crappy tires, on not great brake pads, certainly not track pads, and I'm sure on a bone stock alignment and setup which leaves a lot of speed on the table.

Many make the mistake of going crazy on the car. Others only say never touch the car and learn to drive it. I'd recommend something in the middle. The fact is you can make the car better and more fun (and capable, and safer too) to drive even at less than the absolute limit... and on the street even. But you have to use your head and not go nuts too.

As far are the others. Well you don't know how nuts they are. Or what they're background is, or what tricks there are. The tires are HUGE. Better brakes are HUGE. Hell even a better seat makes driving fast much easier because you can tell when the car moves (if it moves for you at this point) vs. what's you flopping around in the crappy seats.

For me there are two suspension things I do almost immediately just because they make a better car. GOOD shocks (not any shocks and I'd not waste my money on a number of things out there) and a bigger front sway bar (but not too big, that's commonly done). Then I'd tweak the alignment a little which will make even your less than top of the line tires work better.

This is like most things you might have tried and progressed at. Not everyone is the same, no two folks need or even want the same things.

Bill Dearborn

A lot of varying but good advice. As a novice I would keep the car as close to stock as possible. Don't worry too much about the tires at this time just make sure they are in good shape and aren't too new. You might even stay with stock brake pads for a long time. Doing that keeps your costs lower and your fun quotient higher. Follow the old adage about the most important mod you can make and that it is the mod to yourself. It truly is all about Seat Time, Seat Time, Seat Time. As you get used to the car and how it handles and what you as a driver can do to improve it getting around a corner you will get much faster. You also need to learn more than just the school line around the track. You need to be able to do off line corner entries, how to get back on line after an off line entry, how to hold an apex, what parts of the track provide the most grip (remember track characteristics are not always used to set a school line). You need to understand weight transfer and how it affects the car, how to roll on and off the throttle properly so you don't upset the car, how to use trailing throttle oversteer (C5s and C6s are great at this) to yaw the car and aim in the direction you want to go. All of that makes you faster without doing anything to the car. Then you become the guy that everybody else says "How in the hell can he do that?"

Bill

SunnydayDILYSI

As always, Bill has great advice. I've been doing about 10 HPDEs a year for the last few years. I still go in trying to shave .5 sec off my lap time without any new mods, and more often than not I succeed (with instructors/coaches analyzing and providing tips). A friend of mine is an incredible driver and instructor. Last HPDE he went out in the Intermediate group in a Prius and actually caught a couple drivers in 2 door coupes. Technique is far more important than mods. Control, Consistency, Cadence.

rocsvette

Bill has it spot on, basically when you can out drive the stock car you can start looking at performance mods. Take a ride with Andy Pilgrim, Johnny O or similar with them driving your car and you'll really understand.

When I started the HPDE program at the Corvette Museum, the Chief Engineer Tom Wallace sent his engineers and designers to the schools and a number of them have become engineers. Among thos coming to the events were some young engineers and sometimes they drove their own cars, Cobalt SS Turbos. It became standard practice at every event to announce right from the start "if a Cobalt appears behind you, let them pass". Even better, in the 2013 event at Sebring, John Heinricy took my CobLt on street tires and brake pads and passed a Corvette GS in turn 17 on the outside. The point being, master what you have, learn to carry momentum through turns and that will make you faster.

onargaroberts

It' hard to not measure yourself against others but at this point that's not the right focus. Get professional instruction. My recommendation is Spring Mountain. I recommend this from experience. I've been through all three school levels and I go back for a day each spring for a private session to "tune" myself up for the summer track days. (I also go with my son. It's a great father/son activity). I drive a stock 2011 Z06/Z07. I spend all my "car" money on tires (Michelin Cups), brake pads, fluids, filters and instruction. I pass a fair number of modified cars because I'm a better driver. I attribute this entirely to the Spring Mountain instruction and not to any natural ability on my part. I don't think I would have ever gotten to this point on my own. I also get passed by people who are simply better drivers than me. There are a lot of them out there and I'm happy to fall in right behind them to see what I can learn.

When Andy Pilgrim drives my car at Ktech Track Attack, the cars I can't pass disappear in the rear view mirror. This is how I know I don't need to spend any money on "faster" parts. It's amazing what the stock car will do in the hands of a professional. His corner speeds are much faster than mine. He's comfortable at speeds that are uncomfortable for me and he KNOWS he can "catch" the car if he is in too fast. I simply don't know or trust that I can do that. I'm fine with not being able to drive like a professional.

Joshboody

Thanks for the feedback. This was my original thought, to not upgrade anything until necessary which I'm glad everyone confirmed it.

I've had some "I'm good" thoughts, especially my first day... but looking back I was just a good listener. Prob would not have figured out good technique for the track on my own.

Ok next action is focus on alignment... got leveling tiles yesterday. And try competitive mode next event working toward no TC.

Prob do a few things like pcv, trunnions, tunnel plate, and definitely need a seat for my 6' 6" self.

RDnomorecobra

Or even an exceptional instructor. I found out just how little tires really matter to a novice when I got in "Mark's" car at a PDA/NASA event. I had only been at it for a total of maybe 10-12 track days at the time and had been progressing nicely, feeling good about the fact that I was passing a lot of cars in the intermediate/advanced groups (depending on club). He and I both drive a basically stock c5z. He happened to have el cheapo firestone (I think) 275's on all 4 corners of his car that cost him a whole $90 ea, had like a 400 wear rating or something like that. "I try to enjoy this hobby for as little money as I can, so I buy these bricks for under $100", I remember him saying. Well we went out in the instructor group, and he proceeded to LAP almost every other car inside of 20 minutes. Absolutely sailing through corners, I could not stop laughing it was so much fun. One thing I remember was his basically fingertip control on the wheel, minor corrections way ahead of the car and my ability to process as I watched him drive. I immediately abandoned any thought of cams/headers etc. and have worked on seats, HANS, harnesses, brakes, fluids, cooling, and alignment. At maybe 27 track days now the car is still way ahead of me.

I 2nd the idea of one of those pro schools. I have not done that yet but hope too soon.

ratt_finkel

Lots of good feedback here. And I am going to go against the grain a bit.

While I agree %100 that you should not be seriously modding your car. There are some basics you can do to have a safer and more enjoyable expierence. Much like Sam suggested.

Good street tires preferably Max Performance Category or Ultra High Performance Summer.

Get a good alignment.

Get a harness.

EDIT: If you have the dough. A good set of shocks can go a long way towards taming bad car behavior. Especially if your current shocks are blown or old and tired. Don't forget to also make sure you're bushings are in good shape too. Those can cause irregular handling traits.

Get LOTS of seat time. I would highly suggest attending autocross events. It sounds like you have a competitive side. And there is absolutely NO better venue to safely test you and your cars capabilities.

This will give you significantly more confidence in the car. And what happens when you push the limits. To be perfectly honest. If this is your first plunge into high performance driving. It will be a long time before you are comfortable experimenting with slip angles and oversteer. And as a newbie on the race track. You will be putting yourself and others in danger while you explore those limits.

That being said, I think that HPDE is also a great learning tool. But that's it. You really cannot, and should not, be using it as a competitive outlet.

Jeremy Foley

Bad Karma

I doubt I’m going to say anything better than what has already been said, but I’ll type it out anyway.

I understand the urge to have some measuring stick to decide where you are at. I am fortunate in that the group I run the most with does a time trial format (single hot lap at a time, best you can put down). So, over the few years I have been doing this, I have been able to see the times come down year after year. I can still remember the first times out having the rented Miata’s catch me in the twisty bits. The best advice I can give is to judge yourself against yourself at this point, and take in as much instruction as you can. I still prefer to run in the intermediate groups instead of going to advanced, which I have been told was okay to do by a past instructor, because if there’s an instructor willing to take a ride, I’ll take whatever advice they have for me.

TC/AH, I pretty much from the start put the car in competition mode, the active handling felt like a good safety net to me (especially having done some solo autocross with no nannies before hitting a real track). For a couple years I left it on and it really didn’t interfere too much. I would feel it kick in and that was in most cases a sign that I had pushed too hard. At a certain point, and you’ll have to be the judge of this the AH does feel like a hindrance to having the car rotate through the turn. It became very apparent in my driving after an upgrade to sway bars, my last tweak to the alignment settings and the cumulative experience and pushing a bit harder. And I will tell you the nerves were a bit higher going out on that track for the first time with no nannies. I would guess that had I turned it off sooner I may have been a touch faster, but for me I’d rather err on the side of caution, take the car home in one piece than try to be too brave too soon and run out of talent.

My take on modifying.

I’ll start by saying I’m a bit of a mod junky. I’ve been modifying any car I have owned since High School. All of the follow is written assuming you did all the basic upgrades, good fluid, safety checks and the like.

The mod I wish I had done before any other, without question is a race seat. Those early track days, I was fine on brakes and everything else, but being planted and being able to focus on what the car is doing, is such a great feeling.

Like me, you are driving a C5 and even at its newest it’s 10 years old. I think a lot of people overestimate the life of a shock. This is something I would put on the maintenance/upgrade list towards the top.

As for brakes, just keep an eye on what you have and how it’s wearing. I tried to hold out on keeping a dual duty pad on the car longer than I should have. You aren't going to want to run race pads on the street, but come track days they have such a better feel you will be happy when you get to the point that you are pushing your braking zones that you have them. I know people say that race pads are harder on rotors, but not harder than overheating a street/track pad and cooking everything… which I’ve unfortunately done… more than once… But, until you get to that point aggressive street pads are definitely cheaper.

I guess to sum it all up: Your first goal is to drive your car home in the same condition you arrived in (with a bigger smile), then you can work on being faster on track.

wtb-z

Lots of good comments.

AH/TC is an interesting choice. I generally like instructing with it on since I think road courses are a hard place to explore limit handling safely.

It is going to be safer if you leave it on - fewer things to go wrong. However you will never learn car control in limit handling situations with it on. The worst thing to do is drive with it with a long time, start going really fast, and then turn it off. At that point you will be going really fast but still not know how to control the car.

To answer the core question, a C5 should be competitive with almost anything in a lapping day context with no parts on it. So drive faster!

strano@stranoparts.com

Active Handling is good and bad, comp mode is even more weird.

My trouble is basically this: If you have a good clue about what do to, you can get yourself in more trouble with it than without because a good driver tends to correct the ill before the car does, and when it tries you end up with an overcorrection. Now having said that I'd sure be more comfortable in a complete newb's car with it on than off. And this is where autocross is very helpful as you can explore the limits much more safely, and work up to seeing what happens with it, without it, in the comp mode, etc.

RDnomorecobra

I use nannies in the wet and try to drive just under it having to do anything. Slow but a good exercise in smoothness.