ND2RACE

Sam, I really appreciate your interest in my thread, I've been interested in your cars and company since your success in an f-body. So beleive me when I say that I know who you are. and it is a base suspension car, figured I wouldn't leave it alone anyway.

I am not worried about a class, maybe I should be, but I just have fun running with local clubs where classes don't matter. My goals are to have a car that is balanced, in my mind that is something that can 4 wheel drift like a go-kart, even balanced I want to power oversteer. I don't imagine this is hard with a Vette and is why I wanted away from a Miata.

I know shocks are extremely important, what is there for the budget minded? I was thinking C6Z06 shocks, maybe? I work at a GM dealership so I like things I can get a deal on.

I have to do brakes because what is on the car sucks, my Miata had Hawk 9012s on it, I know what a bad choice that was, but I want some confidence in the brakes. My 2002 Camaro is stock with Hawk HPS pads and stops better then the Vette does, so I know the Vette needs some love. I will be flushing out the system with good fluid, so I'm just looking for a quality street/autocross pad.

I think my lack of a class and therefore lack of rules to work around is limiting what some of you want to say. Let's just say you have a limited budget, but you want to enjoy autocrossing, do some cruising, and the occasional track day, what do you do to your completely stock base C5 to make it perform better?

strano@stranoparts.com

The problem is that the addage "you get what you pay for" tends to ring true in most things, including how well shocks work.

If you work at a GM dealer and get cheap prices then I'd say 2004 Z06 shocks are as cheap as you are going to get that work decently. Team those with a front bar, and if you are not worried about the class maybe a rear (we have adjustable rears too) and you have a pretty good start.

Brakes. Again, it's a get what you pay for thing. StopTech's aren't bad, I carry them, but they aren't my personal taste. If you were using Hawk Blues on anything it was not a great idea, especially if it was for autox. I'm sure you used up a lot of rotors. Again depends what you want to spend. HPS are ok, Stoptech is ok. Ferodo DS2500's kick the crap out of both to me in terms of feel and power vs. my foot. I really think you get a lot of good reports on things from folks who've not had the chance to try too much else. The Ferodo's will put up with some track time too.

Bill Dearborn

The C5 with stock setup has a fair amount of trailing throttle oversteer. Going to a square set up with 315s all the way around makes a great combination for autocrossing and tends to make the car very controllable from an oversteer standpoint. Both for trailing and on throttle oversteer. I ran that way for 4 years and had plenty of FTDs. One thing that is a problem with the base C5 is the transmission. It is geared too high so low gear works to some extent but isn't the best. The C5Z transmission ratios really work well where you can start in low and move to 2nd and leave it. That way 2nd gear gives better control when using engine torque to steer the car.


Bill

VetteDrmr

I ran 305s on stock 18" rear wheels, 275s on stock 17" front wheels for several seasons. Like I said earlier, my C5 FRC was pretty happy on higher speed courses with that setup. Slower courses I had to deal with a fair amount of understeer because of too much stagger.

Also, +1 on Sam's comments on HP+ pads. I meant to mention that before, but I didn't like them for slow speed courses, they almost act like on/off brakes, very difficult to modulate. As speeds increase they come more into their own, but then they start breaking down under high heat loads (HPDEs).

HTH, and have a good one,
Mike

ND2RACE

So you put a 305 on a 9.5 inch wheel? Are we on the same page? I have 97 wheels.

wtb-z

I don't love autocrossing, but autocrossing a vette is always lots of fun to me. Lots of tire, lots of power. If you're bored or frustrated start overdriving it until glee is restored. I wouldn't worry a lot about parts assuming they are in OK condition.

Align it so that you get the front working as much as possible and go drive. More front wheel and tire will also increase rotation (e.g., fun), but not strictly necessary.

strano@stranoparts.com

I'd be cautious about the notion that you have to got to square wheel/tire setup. You don't. Now if you are going to run a stock alignment (which is nuts) then I get it to try and keep more rubber on the ground when you don't have negative camber.

A 1" or so split front to rear is just fine for a decently setup car. I have to deal with a 2.5" front to rear difference (per side) with my C6Z running in SSR. But those running in the "new" A-street are fighting a loose condition becasue the rear tires can be so easily snapped loose, as long as you don't overcook the corner to start with.

As for the gearing, I don't believe it's the issue that many do. Seen a lot of folks ream 1st gear, go and down the box like crazy, etc. The fact is the gearing is the same as a LS1 Camaro, which I owned and won a lot of stuff including Championships in without reaming 1st. The Z06 has the same gearing (in C6 form), though actually worse as the rear tires are so much taller. I cost myself a lot of money buying a GS for the gearing, only to go back to a Z06 with the tall gearing. Granted it's got a lot of twist, but it also has a lot of rear wheel and I'm on R-comps, not street tires.

Long story short, and back on topic. Yes, I can help you with a setup that won't kill you, but you should figure out where to play. If you want to be competitive the less you need to spend. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

wtb-z

Certainly my C5Z when it was on 255F/295R Rivals could be all sorts of loose (e.g., fun), but I attribute that mostly to the Rival being terrible

dhowdy

There isn't a tire in the world that wouldn't let loose if you treat the throttle as an on/off switch. Putting koni's and Sam's front bar on my car tamed the rear a lot, car feels fantastic. I'm running on 255/285 RS3s (I've also been running them at 39/36psi which I was recently told is way too high lol), but I don't think the Rivals are that far behind and certainly not terrible.

strano@stranoparts.com

I'm not the world's biggest Rival fan but they don't suck on most surfaces. Less than ideal on concrete. But really that's kind of what you get with stiff sidewall tires and 400+ hp.

Don't worry you have new options next year, including a new Rival compound. And a new Bridgestone. And a new Kumho. And a Toyo R1R that is magically 200TW... is the compound better for big cars than the old one? Remains to be seen.

dhowdy

Any more info when the new tires are coming Sam? What's the choice pick? My RS3s are already getting down there after 2.5 months

strano@stranoparts.com

Likely won't see anything until March/April anyway. Then all the games begin again... you know because this is simple. <rolleyes>

wtb-z

The RS3, like most tires, will have a spot where it can be leaned on without constantly breaking away. I couldn't figure out how to get the Rival to set and hold.

In fairness to the Rival that kind of behavior has upsides as well as downsides in an autocross format, since the car will nearly always be transitioning. But I mostly did road course work with them where they absolutely drove me nuts. Still about as fast as the XS, RS3 and AD08, but much harder to drive.

rfn026

Speaking of budgets….

"Racing is cheap - Winning is expensive."

Richard Newton
Historic Racing Images

ltborg

I ran 285's on my 9.5 rears all season with no issues. If you are insistent on a square tire setup, run 285s on 9.5's all around. That will keep you in STU (for SCCA anyway). Dunlops and Hankooks seem to be the popular brands.

If you do a square setup, throw on Sam's 35mm hollow bar (currently my second choice BS bar, but probably my first choice STU bar).

I run HP+'s and have had no issues, although it sounds like they might not be great as a track day pad.

The real budget option would be to run the car as is and have fun.


This. 100% this.

ND2RACE

I'm certainly not insistant on running anything, hence why I started this thread. It just seemed to me that getting something wider then the stock 245 on the front would be a good thing, so my options for front wheels is the stock 17s and a second set of rear 18x9.5 wheels that I got for next to nothing. This is where budget comes form, the only thing I'm sure of is that I'll need to spend money on tires, and I need to freshen up the brakes so they at least work as well as stock, but hopefully better by choosing a good aftermarket pad.

ratt_finkel

If you can get a second pair of rears, just run those in the front. Then run 295's front and 315's rear.

VetteDrmr

Yup. You'll get folks to argue that the tire is cupped so much that the contact patch suffers. Technically they're correct, I imagine the tires would work a lot better on a 18x10.5 wheel (which I didn't have). I still went quicker, and tire wear was pretty even as well.

Have a good one,
Mike

ltborg

It comes from the guys that run Hoosiers and stuff as much tires on a rim as they physically can. I don't think anyone knows for sure if this works on street tires or not. Personally, I'm a fan of rim support. I ran 255/285 on my car in BS (which is sort of stuffing tire on the rims), but they worked great and wore well. That was on stock width rims and I have more front grip than I know what to do with.

strano@stranoparts.com

The Rival is a much stiffer tire. I see a few posts down from when this original post was written talk of tire vs. rim size, so I'll do there.

The Rival is one of the rare street tires that don't mind being squeezed, in fact I think it makes them easier to drive and less edgy, or best used on cars that are hard on tires and have limited camber. They are stiff. But the compound is still lacking and BFG knows it and is working on it. Fix that issue and it could quickly be the tire to have.

The RS-3 is much more forgiving. It's not as stiff. It also does not like to be squeezed on a small rim. It gets sloppy and vague in a hurry.

Lane is dead on, not that I'm shocked about this coming from the A6 thinking. Which tells you how little critical thinking there is in the world. The Hoosier is STIFF. I know I run a big tire on a small wheel with them. They aren't faster,and in fact wear faster when I do vs. the more proper size. But the window for fast is bigger. It's more tolerant of slip angle. But note I don't just do that for any tire, because any tire isn't the same.